Relationship standards
I had a rather random conversation today, the upshot of which was the following:
- Why is it that the idea of a woman in a heterosexual relationship being intimate with another women is often relatively acceptable, if not arousing, to their corresponding partners? Why is the reversal involving the partner with another man generally less acceptable to the woman?
- Why is it that some men don't regard their girlfriend kissing other women as cheating yet if they kissed another man it would be a serious offence?
- Do men and women have different attitudes towards cheating and does this result in some hypocrisy in the actions of either?
22 May 2006 17:36
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[Skip to the latest comment]Men don't usually assume that if a girl is kissing another girl she must be lesbian or bi, since it's often just done as a joke. As a result, they aren't bothered because there's no meaning in it. If the girl kisses a guy, then there's a much greater chance of something deeper going on there.
Men and Women have the same attitudes towards cheating, some men have no problem with cheating and some women have no problem with cheating.
22 May 2006, 17:46
I think Andrew's right. Women tend to fool around with their female friends for a laugh, and because there's nothing going on.
Women tend to be more comfortable with their sexuality than men, or at least, there are fewer hang ups about seeming 'gay' in a perjorative sense than with men. So for a man to fool around with a male friend would be unthinkable as it would seem to question his masculinity/hetrosexuality.
In a sense, it is unfair. Though if women got something out of kissing their female friends then it would surely cease to be unproblematic so it has to remain meaningless to continue. I would, however, mind my boyfriend kissing another man even if he did say it was meaningless!!
22 May 2006, 20:06
Interesting. Personally, I don't fool around with male friends because I've never felt any desire to.
22 May 2006, 20:20
See – I really feel I should comment on this one…
It's difficult.
As most of my friends know, I do have feelings for women, even if they're just to the level where I find them attractive, and get something (whatever that may mean) out of kissing a lot of them. Sometimes it is just done for a joke, but sometimes it is more than that.
Now, I'm a very flirtatious person, and Jon (boyfriend for those who don't know me) realises this, and knows that one of the main reasons my ex boyfriend and I had such a troublesome relationship was due to him being very possessive, and not liking the flirting thing at all…
As a result, he is very open minded, and I am allowed (if that is the right word) to explore my feelings for women in whichever way I see fit.
This is, obviously, fantastic for me on the surface, because it means I get to pull fit girls and my boyfriend doesn't mind even though he knows that I would quite happily take one or two of them to bed with me (which he also wouldn't mind, incidentally, even if he wasn't there – so long as I tell him all about it…!)
The situation, however, presents me with two issues:
Firstly, it blurs the line. This means that inevitably my flirting with men is more physical and seemingly more intesnse, because I am used to having that freedom. There is no denying that it is more problematic when I have feelings for men, because at the end of the day (when all's said and done, to be fair…) I wouldn't want to have a relationship with a woman, and I would potentially want one with a man.
This, clearly, is nonsense in the real world, as I wouldn't want to spend my life with anyone else, but in the heat of the moment, it does confuse things. This is made harder by the fact that my mother is a serial monogamist and I have underlying fears that it's genetic. My boyfriend also realises this, which is why the emotion involved is much more than the physical attraction.
Most people think I'm a total nymphomaniac, but that couldn't be further from the truth. As a result, personally speaking, an emotional connection is much more potentially damaging than a physical one. This, I assume, is also what Jon thinks.
Secondly, it feels odd being able to have physical relations with women "safe in the knowledge" that Jon is okay with it. Frankly, it would be better if we were both involved, but on occasion that isn't going to be the case, and it feels strange to be so open about lusting after the one or two women I am currently lusting over.
There are a couple more important points. It depends how open minded your group of friends are. Opera and chamber choir, for example, are incredibly so, and you will often find a game of spin the bottle initiated (not always by me, I hasten to add) in order that we all get to kiss the people everyone knows we fancy in a "safe" environment. Whilst this is huge fun, it can also be damaing, because in making the physical connection, there is an inevitable level of emotional connection, and this can then develop as the night wears on and as tiredness and alcohol seep in.
Finally, I wouldn't have a problem with Jon kissing another man at all. But then I've never been normal, and would probably find that quite appealling…
(cont)
22 May 2006, 22:55
I thought I should cut my losses before it told me I'd written to much.
In summary then:
That said – you and Justin play Spin the Bottle… Should this be classed within a whole different set of morals?
…
xx
22 May 2006, 23:02
Just a quick response to this very interesting debate. Edward – interesting re. men not wanting to fool around with other men, if they're straight, that is. This just highlights the difference between the sexes on this subject – women often do enjoy playing around with other women for the various reasons Lorna has listed, though there is mostly nothing deeper or sexual to it, whereas men just don't. I cannot fathom the reasons behind this. My only thought is perhaps that it would, on some fundamental level, feel as though it were questioning the man's sexuality, whereas women are happy in the knowledge that it will not affect theirs. Plus there's the whole titillation thing for men watching women together, which I personally don't get out of watching two men :S Also, I think women find other women less threatening and predatory when it comes to sex/sexual encounters, so feel more free to play around.
23 May 2006, 10:27
Yes Lorna, this thread would have been utterly incomplete without a contribution from you! ;–)
Andrew, on the cheating issue. I guess the assumption has to be, then, is that the harmless female–female flirtation does not constitute cheating in any way. If your opinion is that it does then the concept of cheating must vary. However, again this is down to the individual.
Zoë and Edward, this is interesting. Why bother to fool around with someone of you don’t get something out of it? Why have you and I, Zoë, fooled around with Lorna if it is completely meaningless for us? Or is it because it is meaningless and is thus just a bit of fun? Where’s the line between enjoyment and meaningfulness?
Hmmm, is the idea of two men together equally as attractive to women as the reverse is to men? From a personal point of view, I would disagree. Interestingly, I find the idea of two men together less attractive than two women, though I would count myself as almost completely heterosexual and am individually far more attracted to men. Why is that? It doesn’t seem to make a great deal of sense.
I guess with spin the bottle it’s ‘okay’ because it’s within a different framework where the intimacy is part of the game and everyone is participating. I guess in a way you formally remove any possible ‘meaning’. Having said that, if the assumption is that the game is allowing previously–unexpressed meaning to manifest itself in a ‘safe’ environment, I guess there could be a problem. Then it all boils down, as you say, to the ‘rules’ within each individual relationship.
23 May 2006, 10:36
From a male perspective, I think it's because when a woman kisses another woman we don't feel threatened by it. It's perceived as a fairly normal thing for women to kiss other women, and to us we don't usually get the impression when a woman kisses another woman that it's a result of deeply passionate feelings between them, and we don't feel like the relationship is under threat and therefore feeling replaced. Cheating causes conflict for three reasons that I can see: firstly that it raises insecurity issues in the partner not being content with what he/she has in the current relationship and that it signifies problems, potentially terminal, in the relationship; secondly the individual's moral views with regards to being faithful, and lastly how possessive the individual is of their partner. For whatever reason, most men aren't insecure about their partner kissing another woman, we don't view it as "cheating" as we don't think there's a deep emotional connection, and we're generally possessive of our partners only towards other men, who we see as threats. Therefore we don't take issue with it.
23 May 2006, 11:48
Mathew Mannion
Just like to endorse what Andy said a bit, but also to respond to something that Lorna said…
I don't think that women kissing women is "socially acceptable" any less (or more?) than men kissing men, I think it's more something that girls seem to do because they can get a rise out of men because of it.
I also don't think that having a problem with your girlfriend flirting with other people is necessarily equal to being possessive, but that's just me. I do recognise that sometimes my opinions are rooted deeply in the 1950s in terms of relationships, sadly enough, but that's just my opinion.
When my girlfriend and I split up (but were still in the friends–with–benefits stage of things) she rang me up one night to excitedly tell me that she'd slept with another girl, as if that was something that I'd be really happy and turned on about. Personally I think it's pretty much the same thing, you wouldn't kiss another guy in that kind of a way as a joke, I don't really understand why it's much different to kiss a girl…
23 May 2006, 12:34
Lauren
My boyfriend and I had quite a heated discussion about this one night in bed (of all places) recently. He had told me that he would be really hurt if I kissed another man but wouldn't be bothered if I kissed another woman. He said it wouldn't turn him on but nor would it make him feel threatened. I found this really insulting and asked why a man being sexually attracted to me would be a problem in a way that a woman's attraction to me wouldn't? What is so potent and powerful about a man's sexuality that wasn't about a woman's? Then he said he hadn't actually thought about it that deeply and the bottom line was that he felt whereas I could leave him for another man, I would never leave him for another woman. Then I shared some of my past with him and told him that I had a girlfriend before I came to uni and that I was attracted to both men and women. I hadn't mentioned it before because I didn't know how he would take it. The result of the conversation was that now he would be equally hurt if I kissed a man or woman as both present a threat to our relationship.
I think Lorna is right, that two women 'getting it on' is more 'socially acceptable' because its an idea thats in common currency. Its meant to be 'hot'. I myself am quite scepticle as to whether as many men find it as much of a turn on as they say they do or whether they just go 'phwoar' because they are boys and thats what sadly, they are obliged to do. Similarly sadly, I suspect some girls play up to this to attract male attention. Wouldn't it be funny if the girls did it to turn guys on because the guys act like it does turn them on when in fact it doesn't at all– everyone is just stuck in a weird sexual charade. There are of course magazines full of men getting it on but these tend to be relegated to the hidden corners or top shelves of the newsagents because, of course, a semi naked woman is much more acceptable on the middle shelf right in eye range than a semi– naked oiled up man.
As for cheating, I don't think this is neccessarily related to gender, its more of a personal and circumstantial thing. If my boyfriend got really pissed and kissed one of his mates, male or female, in a jokey, quick way then I won't cry myself to sleep over it but if he, drunk or not, spent ten minutes kissing someone else with his hands all over their body, male or female, I would definately feel disrespected, unloved and more than a little miffed.
23 May 2006, 15:28
It is because it is arousing that it is acceptable. Hetrosexual women who kiss other women "for fun" are doing so because they know it turns men on, so such acts would attract attention of men, whom they like. The extra "feeling" of kissing another woman, I think, is due to knowing they are turning men on (which makes them feel good) but may be confused with having possible feelings for the female. At least that is my interpretation of it.
Women I believe, on the whole, do not find the idea of two men together arousing and subsequently there is no reason for two hetrosexual males to engage in homosexual activities. A hetrosexual man's motivation is to attract females, if females do not find the idea of two men together where is the motivation for such acts?
As to why men find it arousing and women do not, I believe it is primarily because the idea of two women is "softer" than the idea of men together. Also, during sex a man could do to a woman what any woman could, but, a woman is not capable of doing to a man what another man could. Subsequently, a man can invisage being the "giving" female, but a woman can not invisage being the "giving" man for full intercourse.
Motivation. A hetrosexual females motivation for kissing another women is to turn men on. A man kissing another man does not turn women on, so there is no reason why a hetrosexual man would kiss another, unless he was having homosexual tendacies.
Views on cheating don't vary by sexes but by individuals. The word cheating implies something done without the other's consent, if the man is happy for his girlfriend to kiss other girls or vice versa then it is not cheating. For reasons mentioned above, generally men "allow" (or give their consent for) girls to kiss other girls but women "don't allow" men to kiss other men. If permission isn't given then in my opion it's cheating. The basis of women are more confident in their sexuality could be questioned here, if women are more confident in theirs why do they not allow men and men, where as less secure men don't mind for the reverse?
As for just cheating on its own, personally I find it disgraceful. I think it is shallow, selfish and immature. I'd honestly be ashamed of myself if I ever cheated on someone. I've had the oppertunity to cheat, both whilst I was in a relationship myself, and whilst I was not but the girl was, I turned them both down. This signifies that this is not just a "happy ideal" but actually something I practise, not for religious reasons but for respect and consideration of other people's feelings. I've also been on the recieving end, finding out whilst on "holiday" to see them. I also don't belive anyone "deserves" to be cheated on, no matter what, at our age it's not like kids/morgage/house are factors and so having the dignity to break up with them first is the least someone could do in my opinion. Still it's a waste to hate them, accept it, learn from it, then move on. Perversly, I'm glad I was cheated on, I learnt a lot from it and I belive I'm a better person for it. :)
23 May 2006, 15:46
There have been lots of comments along the lines of "two men kissing isn't arousing for women". There has been some research done into this where women were shown various videos (porn involving 2 women ; one man & one woman; two men; monkeys etc) and their physical response and a subjective response were recorded.
It turns out that the women thought they were only aroused by the appropriate stimulus (ie straight women responded well to the hetero couple, and gay women responded well to the two women), but in fact their physical response showed that all the stimuli had a remarkably similar effect (yes, even the monkeys).
So even if women don't think they are turned on by that stuff they are.
Same doesn't apply for men apparently.
So girls, like it or not, your body responds positively to two men kissing, although your brain might not.
Does this affect the debate at all?
23 May 2006, 17:22
Interesting, do you have a link to the study or the name of the researcher?
23 May 2006, 17:55
Felicity – I remember hearing about that study too, though I can't remember where. They thought it was evolutionarily useful for women to get turned on to everything so they would be receptive to males, whereas men are only turned on to specific stimuli so they don't waste themselves on non–reproductive females.
Sarah – in answer to why I have fooled around in the past: looking back, it was an unthreatening offer of pleasure basically. It was highly enjoyable (women tend to have softer lips ;) ) and did not come with any hang–ups or under/overtones of anything else, because I knew it had no fundamental sexual meaning (at least for me…). I hope that's not insulting, Lorna. It was highly enjoyable and something I wouldn't say no to again ;)
Though, interestingly, I think I'd only feel comfortable doing it with a friend, someone I knew well and trusted. I wouldn't get a kick out of randomly pulling any girl.
xx
23 May 2006, 18:15
The study is quoted here link
23 May 2006, 18:17
Hmmm. Indeed.
23 May 2006, 18:34
Ta for that link Zoe, I was referring to a programme I watched on channel 4 which did much the same experiment, only just testing women. Glad someone found a written–up version of the findings.
23 May 2006, 19:34
Not insulting at all Zoe.
In fact, that's just made me think – I get more of a kick out of kissing straight girls anyway. I have only kissed a couple (if that – can't think who they are) properly bi girls (and by that I mean girls who might have a relationship–based interest in me, and I don't enjoy that half as much as kissing people for whom it's just a bit naughty.
:P
xx
23 May 2006, 20:51
Dan said:
I take your point as valid but I know people who'd dispute every part of that sentence, hehehe.
23 May 2006, 20:56
#18 Lorna That sounds like it's better for you because it's safe. Although women like to portray themselves as more tolerant than men, there are in fact a lot of women who are repelled by the idea of kissing a woman with purpose. Heterosexual women sometimes get intimidated by bi/gay/whatever women's genuine attention, just as men do with attention from gay men.
However because men are less likely to kiss for fun (I think it's societal reasons personally) it is generally assumed that anyone a man kisses is done in seriousness. Thus women find it less acceptable for a man to kiss another man as she automatically assumes a degree of seriousness. Also this is probably why straight girls/girls in hetero relationships prefer to kiss other straight/hetero/disinterested women as they know it means nothing serious and is not, therefore, hypocrisy. Perhaps we should also be asking gay women/women in gay relationships or gay men/men in gay relationships if they consider it to ok for their partner to kiss the opposite/same sex?
23 May 2006, 21:03
I agree with Holly, you only have to look at the Greeks to see the opposite side of the coin, lots of male kissing – although not used to titillate females so perhaps not a wholly valid comparison.
24 May 2006, 00:57
Sigh.
24 May 2006, 01:10
Eleanor– did you mean ancient or modern Greeks?
24 May 2006, 09:12
This also brings up the questions of trust and ownership in relationships… How many people really trust their partner? I mean really trust their partners. And are really trusted in return. It seems to me (im my experience) that once people get into a relationship that they feel that they have some sort of rights of ownership over their partner and therefore believe that monogamy means not looking at anyone else, whereas surely it means not getting involved with anyone else. (Wasn't there an episode in 'Sex and the City' where one of the girls got upset because 'her' man looked at another girl? Seemed a control issue to me, personally but there you go.) Even looking at/talking to someone else sometimes brings on the whole fear/insecurity thing of twenty questions ('do you think she's better looking than me', 'did you ask her out?').
The thing is, if a straight (–ish) woman kisses another (straight–ish) woman, does she do it also to show that 'she can', that is not the 'chattel' of her partner as much as anything else? And Is she saying 'look you can trust me around other people'? And that she trusts her man to trust her?
24 May 2006, 10:01
As a heterosexual male who feels more comfortable flirting with other men, I'm probably in something of a minority. I do it because it amuses me; I doubt anyone is titillated by it. I find it entertaining regardless of whether the recipient is horribly creeped out (usual) or responds in kind (less so). I've never stopped to consider the sexuality or relationship status of the other person, but I rarely consider such things at all.
I guess I just find homosexuality funny for some reason, regardless of gender. Although it's only hot when it's girls. Plus 'lesbian' is a great word.
I'm not really in a position to comment on the actual questions posed in the origianal post, sorry.
24 May 2006, 10:05
I used to be really flirtatious with both men and women, but the more stable and long term my relationship has become the less I feel comfortable about flirting with anyone (other than very close friends). I would hope that my man feels the same. Interestingly I'm quite happy about him jesting about sex with his housemates, but get really posessive when my housemate (male) starts flirting with him.
Also, does it mean anything that I find his feminine features highly attractive???
24 May 2006, 10:25
Zoe: Ancient! Sorry that wasn't very clear was it? (I do Classics so its normally just taken as read!)
24 May 2006, 13:24
Eleanor – I suspected so, but just wanted to check!!
Though they're homosexual relationships were mostly of the older man/protegee type thing weren't they? In a sense they were a complete construction of the society and its customs for passing on education and civic rules, and it was partly because women were, in Aristotle's opinion, less intelligent and able to reason than men, so couldn't be an equal partner to their husbands, and they were kept locked up all the time indoors!
24 May 2006, 14:36
Perhaps a lot of men instinctively (and yes, probably completely falsely) feel the way Banky does in Chasing Amy: "All every woman really wants, be it mother, senator, nun, is some serious deep–dickin' ". I doubt most guys see another woman as a threat.
The way Friends tackles the issue is quite scary though with the Ross, Carol, Susan triangle. It's hard not to feel sorry for Ross, I find.
Yes that's right, I get everything I claim to know from American film and TV.
24 May 2006, 16:31
Zoe yes exactly! Although who knows what the women got up to without their men around, Theocritus' Idylls describe interesting dildo scenarios, and of course there is Sappho too. In some ways there is a bigger male/female divide then, with utterly separate and appropriate worlds for each gender.
24 May 2006, 18:39
In reference to the study mentioned, what would a lesbian responding "objectively" the same as straight women to a given stimuli do to the social norm argument?
24 May 2006, 19:05
Rosario
answer to this is very simple biology if u like the subject.
fact is, men&women look for different things:
Women look for the Best One
Men look for as Many As (they can get)
Guess you could throw in culture/upbringing in there as well but its not always necessary to complicate things as such!
25 May 2006, 15:28
Hamid Sirhan
On an interesting sidenote (for me at least), we're talking about relationship standards and people here are writing out pages of their pillowtalk… how about a little privacy for your partner perhaps?
29 May 2006, 12:21
Hamid, who was that directed at?
I guess this is another example of standards within relationships. My partner has read this entirety of this entry and has no problem with it (at least from the point of view of our relationship). I have a feeling that if anyone else had thought their partners would take issue they wouldn't have contributed. If it is your opinion that people shouldn't reveal such things in public then you can choose not to read this entry. However, if others choose to write in the knowledge that this is a completely public blog thread then I have no problem with it. As has been said many times before, it is entirely dependent on the rules within your own relationship.
30 May 2006, 10:12
Adam Grey
I have an interesting contribution to this topic and I need some advice. My relationship is very deep (i asked my partner riggorisly – and with honesty, I can claim that), we'e been together for what seems to be "a while", and I came across something I should have forgot a while ago, but it still bothers me.
I was with my partner just taking a walk and up ahead was one of her lady–friends. She recognized her as a person whose name escaped her. Anyway, they came up to eachother, pecked eachother at the lips, salutations, then "goodbye".
This action (of course) made me confront my partner immediately after it.
She used to like girls (she confessed to this many times earlier), but she also tells me (alot) that she isn't a lesbian. I know that all of this flirty, "looking at other girls to check them out" is all just fun for our relationship, but when we start to kiss other people, we need to tone it down.
I am okay with it, I think it was cute. But doesn't that say something about how feel about my relationship? I mean, if I didn't care who she hung out with and what she did, would I be considered "a cool boyfriend" or "someone who doesn't care"? I usually do things well the first time, and I wouldn't have to think about it further. I mean I really care about her, but I just don't know what to do about this. I thought about what understanding my partner would have if I had done the same thing, but I came to the conclusion that I would never even think of doing any of the sort. I intentionally don't look at other women just in spite of only tending to her needs (and that is all I really want in my love life).
I have that insecure feeling about her now, but in the other part of my thinking, what she says, I have to trust (she says that she will remain fathful if I leave for a while and she'd only be in bed with her dildo).
I also get insanley jealous when she even talks to others…but I never talked to her about this, I have only meantioned it to her when I was telling her I love her. Is this my problem or is this normal?
10 Jun 2006, 20:25
Have you had many other girlfriends? I think this is "normal" for people in their first major relationship, particularly when it's as serious as yours sounds. There isn't really a solution, most such relationships tragically go wrong when there's an asymetry of experience, I guess I can only wish you luck.
Otherwise I think there is a bit of a problem. You need to ask yourself why you get these jealous feelings and how you can be less insecure about the relationship, I doubt your girlfriend really likes it – which is bad news if you want to stay with her.
But then, I don't really know much. I base everything on movies and Jeffrey Brown comics.
10 Jun 2006, 21:32
Paul
I don’t think any of what you say are acceptable. I think it’s something guys fantasise about perhaps, but if faced with the scenario, I think they’d have an issue with it. I know I would!
11 Sep 2006, 19:05
kelley
my boyfriend gets an attitude with me when we are around other girls we do not know what does this mean ??
18 Nov 2007, 00:17
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