26 comments by 6 or more people

1. Steven Carpenter

   Part of the problem at those lights is that it has relatively high approach speeds; the 50MPH limits on the Kenilworth Road mean that vehicles often jump the lights. A red light camera there might help, or at the very least some refuges across Gibbett Hill Road.

   01 Dec 2006, 11:39

2. Robert O'Toole

   It is a very dangerous junction. Actually part of the problem is that car drivers fear it. Bizarrely, drivers tend to accelerate through danger rather than being more cautions! The strange psychology of driving. There is also poor visibility coming in from that direction, due to the odd shape and camber of the road.

   Of course this is a symptom of poor driver education. The Highway Code is unequivocal. You must stop on amber unless you will cause an accident. That does not mean that you accelerate through the lights. It means that you approach a junction with caution, expecting to have to stop. Drivers at this junction are quite obviously accelerating through amber, and even red.

   http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/signs01.htm

   01 Dec 2006, 11:53

3. Robert O'Toole

   Do you think that car drivers actually care about killing us?

   01 Dec 2006, 11:54

4. Chris May

   Do you think that car drivers actually care about killing us?

   I think that it’s all part of what you accurately term “The strange psychology of driving” . Rationally, of course, all drivers care; none of them (bar the occasional psychopath) would want to injure another person.

   But car drivers believe that they are safer drivers than they actually are. This isn’t surprising; people in general think they are better than they really are .
   So drivers think ‘sure, speeding causes accidents, but only for other drivers. I am a good driver, I can handle my car at this speed’. Or substitute speed for red-light jumping, driving whilst tired, or drunk, or any other dangerous practice you care to consider.

   I’m not sure what the solution is, apart perhaps from the recognition that cars are inherently dangerous, and their use deserves to be regulated and controlled to the same degree that other comparably-dangerous machinery is.

   01 Dec 2006, 12:36

5. sportcrazy

   Chris wrote: “Rationally, of course, all drivers care; none of them (bar the occasional psychopath) would want to injure another person.”

   I find that people driving care about my safety up to the point at which they feel I might slow their progress (to the next red light). Then it’s a 30 mph pass at 1 foot distance with oncoming traffic and cars parked all along the left.

   “People driving” and not “drivers”. I think relations between cyclists and drivers are bad enough in the media and elsewhere – we should remember that we’re all humans and a person cycling today can be a person driving tomorrow.

   I’d love if a requirement for a driving license was that you had to spend 4 hours cycling in city and suburban traffic.

   01 Dec 2006, 16:32

6. Steve Rumsby

   I find that people driving care about my safety up to the point at which they feel I might slow their progress (to the next red light). Then it’s a 30 mph pass at 1 foot distance with oncoming traffic and cars parked all along the left.

   Out of curiosity, where do you position yourself on the road when you cycle? The reason I ask is that this rarely happens to me. Sometimes, yes, but not at all often. Most drivers leave enough room when they pass me, and will stay behind me if there isn’t room, rather than squeezing past.

   My theory is that this is because I ride some way out from the side of the road, and from parked cars if there are any. Psychologically, this makes me appear bigger and so drivers think they need to give me more room. And if space is restricted I will typically move further into the road, for example where there is a pedestrian refuge in the middle of the road, so that passing is impossible. A useful side-effect is that if a driver does try and squeeze past I have plenty of room to my left to get out of his/her way.

   This is a well-known theory – the Theory of BIG.

   In practice this means I tend to position myself approximately where the inside wheels of a car would be, typically a little less than a metre out from the road and/or parked cars. And further out if it is necessary to prevent following vehicles from overtaking.

   Surprisingly, I find most motorists are very tolerant of this. I’ve never had anybody sound their horn or shout at me, and rarely do people try to squeeze past anyway.

   01 Dec 2006, 16:46

7. Terrific link, Mr May – I’m so glad that none of that self-deception lark applies to me.

   01 Dec 2006, 17:20

8. Steve Rumsby

   i’ve been caught behind cyclists heading towards coventry from kenilworth who cycle around 1m from the cycle path but choose to use the road instead which really does grate :)

   I must confess, I’m a cyclist who doesn’t use the shiny new cycle path along that stretch of the road. And it is precisely the problems mentioned in this blog that have persuaded me to do that. If you stay on the road, negotiating this junction on a bike is no different from negotiating it in a car. You have the full cycle of the green light to get across rather than just the few seconds when all lights are red, and everybody understands exactly who has priority because the rules for bikes on the road are the same as those for the cars on the road. I do tend to cycle this stretch of road only when it is quiet, at lunchtime, but I’ve only once had a car driver complain at me for cycling on the road. This was a car travelling from Coventry to Kenilworth which was turning right into Cryfield Grange Road and had to wait a few seconds extra while I passed the junction – a shout of “Why don’t you use the cycle path?” greeted me as I passed him.

   I fully understand that cycling on your own is different from cycling with a young person in a seat on the back, and so obviously issues about the cycle path and its interactions with the road are important and need to be sorted out.

   just to stick up for us car drivers though, there’s a lot of poor cycling too

   There is indeed. I see far too much of it. Sometimes I’m embarrassed to be a cyclist:-)

   01 Dec 2006, 22:22

9. There’s actually no adequte pedestrian crossing at those lights, you have to take your chances and run! its a major hazard. I think the local paper may be your friend in this instance, a little piece on eco-friendly father evil cars etc, they’ll love it.

   02 Dec 2006, 00:06

10. Lucy Griffiths

    I’d agree with James in comment 8 about considering putting a roundabout in. I use that stretch of road almost every day coming back from the A46 and then turning right to head towards Coventry, and as there is no right hand filter you have to wait until it goes red at busy times before crossing, which delays everyone else, as you can then only get one or 2 cars through before the other lights go green. I really think something needs to be done about it, especially as there are obvious problems involving cyclists.

    02 Dec 2006, 11:04

11. My understanding is that it’s politically impossible to put a phase for cyclists on the track travelling North-South or South-North as it would delay motorists.

    There’s a number of big-cheeses in Coventry council who want to put in a by-pass to the south to link the A46 to the A45. But that’s heavily opposed by Warwickshire county council, as it’s in their patch and the powerful people who live around there want to keep the green belt.

    02 Dec 2006, 19:13

12. They should definately make that area a 30mph zone to make the approach safer. And then if possible widen the whole lot.

    02 Dec 2006, 20:03

13. Robert O'Toole

    Out of curiosity, where do you position yourself on the road when you cycle?

    Steve, I actually almost never ride on the road, especially when carrying a baby. The standard of driving here is so atrocious that it would be too great a risk.

    I do sometimes ride around the main university road when alone. Having ridden a motorcycle in London for a year, I am certainly capable of dominating the road and controlling the drivers, as many of them will know. It’s a 20mph zone, so I feel justified in stopping drivers who cause me problems, and forcing them to get out of their cars and apologise. Wearing a flourescent highways jacket helps!

    My other road safety warning is with regard to the parts of the road that contain pedestrian refuges. In many locations here, the refuges cause the road to be too narrow for a bicycle and a car. And yet car drivers still try to squeeze through. Last year I saw a friend almost hit by a dopey driver doing just that. On the main roads, the best thing is to just avoid these points. On the university road, I move early on into the center of the road to force following traffic to slow. For this I get abuse from the motorists! But it is the only way to safely proceed. I’m going to write an entry about this once I have taken some photos and some measurements.

    04 Dec 2006, 08:38

14. Robert O'Toole

    Also, perhaps the International Office could put a basic road rules leaflet into the welcome pack for non-EU students. Many of them drive cars, but seem completely unaware of our the Highway Code. Perhaps in China cyclists do have to give way to cars?

    04 Dec 2006, 08:40

15. matt

    I have been cycling to the University most mornings since the summer. [...] Steve, I actually almost never ride on the road, especially when carrying a baby. The standard of driving here is so atrocious that it would be too great a risk.

    How do you get to campus from the Gibbet Hill Road crossroads without cycling on the road?

    04 Dec 2006, 09:37

16. Robert O'Toole

    I walk from the top of the hill into the Medical School, then on the cycle path through the woods and up to the Union. From there I do go on the road, but at 8:00 it is quiet.

    It’s a good route.

    04 Dec 2006, 10:18

17. Chris May

    I don’t quite see the logic of this?

    In comment 10 Steve states exactly why lots of cyclists don’t use cycle lanes. It’s nothing to do with whether or not it’s more effort to use them, simply that it’s safer not to. A cyclist on the road doesn’t have to content with insane crossing schemes like the one described here, or with cars reversing out of their drives and over the cycle path without looking, nor with the zillion other risks that come from being ghettoized onto a cycle path. If, as a cyclist, you understand how to behave on the road, then it’s safer to take your proper place with the other traffic. If we had proper cycle lanes, physically separated from both the footpath and the road, rather than the current token offerings, then things might be a bit different.

    04 Dec 2006, 10:41

18. Robert O'Toole

    Actually there are lots of people using the new cycle lane. Mostly the slower and less confident cyclists like me. The guys in lycra stick to the road. But the cycle lane is designed precisely for people like me. I no longer want to drive. I want to cycle, use less carbon, be fit.

    04 Dec 2006, 11:25

19. Back to the original point. I think the most practical option is a cyclist/pedestrian phase on the lights. That would mean no trees to be cut or asphalt to be laid.

    But a mere council officer wouldn’t have the authority to do anything like that. You need to get the local councillors on your side.

    04 Dec 2006, 12:30

20. Steve Rumsby

    I have forwarded a link to this blog to one of my local councillors, not from Wainbody Ward but from neighbouring Westwood Ward, asking for advice on how best to progress the issue. I’ll post here when I get a response…

    04 Dec 2006, 13:29

21. Robert O'Toole

    Here’s a link to the council report that led to the construction of the route:

    http://cmis.coventry.gov.uk/CMISWebPublic/Binary.ashx?Document=3265

    Phase 3 of the plan is to create a shared use path from the junction to the entrance to the Gibbet Hill Campus. Good. But there is no mention of the crossing – a serious but obvious ommission.

    04 Dec 2006, 15:21

22. Perhaps in China cyclists do have to give way to cars?

    Its every man/woman/child for themselves on Chinese roads I’m afraid. Its scary the standard of driving, thats why they have such a large amount of fatalilties on their roads. However they do often have cycle lanes and the pack mentality of cyclists mean if they all pull out together then they will (mostly) get across busy intersections. I think the standard of driving and lack of highway code (or enforcement thereof) is a major reason why non-residents aren’t allowed to drive in China.

    04 Dec 2006, 16:47

23. Phase 3 of the plan is to create a shared use path from the junction to the entrance to the Gibbet Hill Campus. Good. But there is no mention of the crossing – a serious but obvious ommission.

    Cycling between Kenilworth Road and the Gibbet Hill campus is a different issue from cycling along Kenilworth Road. A cycle track / pedestrian phase at the Gibbet Hill / Kenilworth road junction would assist with the latter, but I don’t see it helping with the former, unless there is a cycle track along the north side of Gibbet Hill Road.

    If a cycle track is to be constucted between the Gibbet Hill / Kenilworth Road junction and the Gibbet Hill campus (for cycle traffic to/from Kenilworth) there’s the possibility of having a crossing away from the Gibbet Hill / Kenilworth road junction. It might be a good idea to provide an exit/entry to the Gibbet Hill campus from Moreall Meadows – to allow the crossing of Moreall Meadows to be set back from Gibbet Hill Road…..

    04 Dec 2006, 17:56

24. Councils create conflict between cyclists and motorists.
    Examples are
    • no cycle track phase at the top of Gibbet Hill
    • building centre islands – as on Gibbet Hill Road.

    See http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/cyclingtowarwick/entry/traffic_islands/

    05 Dec 2006, 09:36

25. Robert O'Toole

    I would like to keep the thread of this discussion on topic: the dangerous junction.

    However, if you want to understand why my claim that “I am certainly capable of dominating the road and controlling the drivers” is assertive and not aggresive, I suggest you read my entry on the motorcycle roadcraft police system I use and am trained in the recommended system of polite but assertive riding.

    05 Dec 2006, 21:43

26. Re comment 39:
    I too would like to keep the thread of this discussion on topic: the dangerous Gibbet Hill junction. See http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/cyclingtowarwick/entry/traffic_islands/ for my reply to Matt.

    05 Dec 2006, 22:51