January 08, 2005

Inside the Dragon's Den

I submitted my proposal for funding for the Lord Rootes Memorial Fund

A comparative socio-economic study of Mumbai and Shanghai

Introduction

The 21st century belongs to Asia. There is no denying this. However, for some Asian countries, the future looks grim, viz. Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, etc. For others, the peak of their economic miracle is in the past, viz. Japan and the ASEAN states. For two countries, however, the best is yet to come. India and China have been growing at roaring rates over the past couple of decades, and their development will blossom around the half way mark of this century. Since its liberalisation in 1978, China has grown in excess of 8% per annum. India, which opened up much later in 1991, has grown at nearly 7% per annum. By 2025, China and India are predicted to be the second and third largest economies of the world respectively. By 2050, according to a Goldman Sachs report, China and India will become the world’s largest two economies. Such a stupendous phenomenon cannot be left unstudied.

The focal point of the Indian and Chinese economic engines is based in their financial capitals, Mumbai and Shanghai respectively. My aim in this project is to undertake a comparative coverage of the potentials of each city, their weaknesses, their achievements and finally, their characters. The thrust of the research would be to compare these cities on parameters of economic success and social justice, and draw a conclusion on their respective prospects for the future.

The Importance of Mumbai and Shanghai

Once given as dowry to Charles II for his marriage to Catherine de Breganza, Mumbai is India’s premier port city, located on the Arabian Sea. It is the capital of India’s most industrially advanced state of Maharashtra, on the west coast of India. Nearly half of India’s total foreign trade passes through its harbour, and around 40% of India’s total income tax collections come from the city alone. Culturally, it is India’s most vibrant city- hosting the famous ‘Bollywood’ film industry. It is the seat of human enterprise- home to over 18 million people.

Shanghai is a bustling metropolis located on the mouth of the Yangtze river, hosting over 13 million people. Known as the ‘Pearl of the Orient’, Shanghai boasts a glittering skyline, thanks to its Pudong district. Pudong also hosts some of the world’s top multi-national corporations, all doing brisk business in the city. The city is at the forefront of the economic boom in China, popularly known as the ‘Chinese miracle’.

Why Mumbai and Shanghai?

Thriving metropolitan cities exist in both countries- Delhi and Bangalore in India, Beijing in China. However, no two cities are so uniquely economic in their orientation as Mumbai and Shanghai. Beijing and Delhi are the political capitals of their respective countries, which serves as a distraction from the economic focus of this project. Bangalore is primarily economic in its outlook, but the economic development there is riding on an Information Technology and Business Process Outsourcing boom. It lacks the all-rounder status of Mumbai. Mumbai and Shanghai occupy centre stage in their countries’ economies and the surrounding regions.

Benefits from the Project

Much has been said about China since its liberalisation began in 1978. Far less, but still substantial has been said about India since 1991 when it hopped on to the capitalist bandwagon. These countries are now aiming for the top. At the onset of the Asian century, we need to identify the epicentre of their aspirations, more specifically, economic aspirations- Mumbai for India, Shanghai for China. If we are to understand how India and China will shape the future world, we need to comprehend how globalisation has shaped these two cities, how it is still shaping them. There is much to identify that is inherent in the character of these cities that will reveal the story of their rise in the 21st century. It is extremely useful to be aware of their perceptions of each other, and their prospects when seen in each other’s context. For it is only then will we be able to appreciate what these cities have truly achieved, what more needs to be done and what will be realistically done. Today the global economy feels any movements in the markets of New York or Tokyo, a few decades ago they used to follow the lead of the City of London. In the coming decades, as India and China occupy centre stage in the global economy, same will be the fate of Mumbai and Shanghai. Now that it is beyond reasonable doubt that these two cities will shape the global economy, the only question that needs to be answered is how. I seek to answer that question in my project.

Methodology

Direct interaction would form the bulk of the material that I hope to collect. Essentially, my interviews would target three economic entities, viz. employees, employers and tourists. This would enable me to encompass individuals from all income brackets and thus would enable me to paint a clearer picture of the city in question, both from the perspective of the insiders as well as that of an outsider. Time permitting I would like to interview two other classes- students and the unemployed. The former would help me identify the perceptions of the younger urbanites, while the latter would enable me to comment on the equitable distribution of the fruits of growth. I have already identified some companies in Shanghai for this purpose, among which Satyam Computer Services (IT/ITes), Reliance Industries Limited (Telecommunication, textiles, energy, etc.), State Bank of India (financial services) and Raymond Limited (textiles) would be a priority for me, as they are market leaders in their sectors in India. . My questionnaires would involve the interviewee’s opinions about the business environment, the political climate and the nature of the society of the city in question.

Following the local press would be an important part of my schedule. This would take the form of internet-based outlets, local newspapers and television. The presentation of pressing issues by the local media would enable me to grasp the mentality of the city towards important public policy concerns and their impact on the economy and society of the city.

Visual evidence will also be part of my methodology, as they would vividly depict, more than any other method, the achievements of the city, and the pressing concerns that lie ahead of it. Photo journals of popular urban centres, business parks and slums will help us identify the equitable distribution of growth.

The Report

My study is essentially comparative in nature. The mention of the cities in isolation would be restricted to the introduction and in areas where the same criteria does not apply for the other city. Similarities and differences between the cities would be identified in the following areas

  • Factors of production- business environment, quality of workforce, infrastructure, investor perception, political environment etc.
  • Losers of growth- the extent to which their economic boom is equitably distributed.
  • Performance of domestic industry- How Indian companies are faring in Shanghai and their Chinese counterparts in Mumbai.
  • The soul of each city- popular places of urban life and entertainment and changing trends.

After this comparative analysis, a comment on their prospects would be made. As an endnote, the following categories will be included-

  • Limitations- I will be an outsider in Shanghai, therefore my background knowledge about the city and its people would be minimal. For instance, I might not correctly interpret questionnaire responses. The language barrier would make it hard for me to maximise my interaction with the subaltern classes. However, an empty page is neater than a scribbled on page. I will try to turn my position as an outsider into an advantageous one, for I will be bereft of any previous prejudices or beliefs of my own while making my conclusions.
  • A brief description of interesting encounters during my interviews will be included. This will illustrate more vividly the experience of interacting with dwellers of these cities.
  • Recommendations- I will include a brief section to note the main points for a future visitor or researcher to note about these cities.

Contingency Plans

I will take out travel insurance before I leave the UK to cover for any accidental damage to my possessions or myself. My family lives in India, therefore I would have enough security, both financial and otherwise, readily available there. In Shanghai, I would contact the Indian Embassy in case of an emergency. To be on the safe side, and also for the convenience of language, I would take a tour guide with me everywhere in the city.

Why Me?

There are certain criteria that make me particularly suitable to carry out this challenging project. I was born and raised in the port city of Kolkata in eastern India. Coming from a bustling metropolitan city of India very similar to Mumbai, I am well aware of the character of urban India, which will reflect in my methodology. My first language is Hindi, which is the language primarily spoken through out India. Knowledge of the native language would enable me to reach the most subaltern of people in Mumbai, and to appreciate the dynamics of the lower classes in India’s political economy. India and China share much in common in terms of culture and societal norms. Hence, I would be in an excellent position to conduct a meaningful inspection of life in Shanghai. For example, the issues raised by the poor in urban China reflect to a large extent those of their counterparts in India. Therefore, I will be in an immediate advantageous position to compare the demands of the two classes within the context of their adversaries, and scope for future action by the administrations. Finally, the most vibrant class in these two countries is the thriving middle class, especially since economic liberalisation. My background is also of a typical Asian middle class type. Thus, I can put myself in the shoes of the urban masses of these two great cities and calculate their aspirations and disappointments very easily, something that would not be so natural for someone with a different class profile.

Cost

Item Cost (£)

London-Mumbai Return Airfare- 450
Mumbai- Shanghai Return Airfare- 450
Accommodation for approx. 15 days in Shanghai- 350
Accommodation for approx. 15 days in Mumbai- 250
Maintenance (Food and Travel) for 1 month- 700

Total- 2,200

Notes

  1. I have chosen Tongmao Hotel in Shanghai because it is located in the Lujiazui Development Zone, at the centre of Shanghai’s Pudong district, which is the heart of its business community.
  2. I have chosen Hotel Apollo in Mumbai because it is located close to the Flora Fountain business centre. It is also adjacent to the Gateway of India, the seat of Mumbai’s urban life.
  3. The need to visit business centres and urban hotspots entails a lot of travelling, which incidentally will take place in India and China’s most expensive two cities.
  4. This project was drawn up keeping the Lord Rootes Memorial Fund in mind, therefore without almost total help from the fund, this project cannot be undertaken. I have worked part-time this year and I can contribute around £200 from my funds, but I would need a grant of a minimum of £2,000 to undertake this project. My estimate of maintenance might not be entirely accurate regarding Shanghai, due to my lack of first hand experience of the country. I will also have to employ a tourist guide in the city, the costs of which are unknown to me. Therefore, I have estimated around £30 per day as maintenance expenses in Shanghai. I will maintain regular accounts of my spending.

Itinerary

I expect to leave for Mumbai around the 25th of August. After having spent a week in Mumbai, I would fly to Shanghai and spend approximately 2 weeks there. On my return to Mumbai, I would stay a further week and then leave finally for the UK. The whole project would take approximately 4 weeks and should be finished by the 25th of September, 2005. I have chosen this particular month, because it is the time when the monsoon season finishes in these countries. The monsoon has a significant impact on the country’s economy, since a large number of people in both countries are employed in agriculture. The impact of the monsoon on the harvest would be evident in late August/early September and would consequently effect the issues that would be raised in the public domain. I have decided to sandwich my Shanghai trip between my stay in Mumbai, because once I have experienced Shanghai and returned to Mumbai, I would be in a much better position to compare the two, rather than if I had stayed in the cities one after the other.


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  1. Hu ZhenYu

    Go to China to have a look, China is a way ahead of India in every area.

    I am from Shanghai, and I have visited Mumbai. Just step out of the airport, you will see the difference. There is no comparison.

    06 Feb 2005, 12:33

  2. I would very much like to visit Shanghai. From outside, it seems a glittering metrpolis. In terms of urban beauty, it surpasses Mumbai by a lot. However, the point to take away from here is that Shanghai's government can implement projects much faster than the Mumbai municipality, as it does not have to face the wrath of the uprooted slum dwellers in the next election. Also, Mumbai is considerably more crowded than Shanghai, home to 18 million people, and therefore poses more problems for the government.

    An interesting read-

    link

    06 Feb 2005, 15:11

  3. Hu ZhenYu

    Chinese people cannot understand, why India always attacks China.

    While European and Americans are happily doing business with China. Most Chinese do not know much about India, and have no specific bad feeling about India. Most of the Chinese do not even know there was a war in 1962.

    Democracy or not who cares? What really matters is competent governing. Current Chinese government does a great job and it does have the support of Chinese people. In China there is no one man one vote election, but if you look carefully the road to top in fair for every one. Nearly all the current communist leaders are from humble backgrounds. It is China’s free education systems that enable a poor farmer to become stateman.

    All the success Asia nations are similar, Japan, Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, now China. They all start with economy reform then to maybe political reform. Did you notice they are all yellow!

    So far only two kinds of people has build up advanced nation in country scale, the white man and the yellow man.

    There is no any black man has build up successful nation in country scale, not in Africa not in India.

    06 Feb 2005, 16:22

  4. Your post covers a wide territory, let me reply categorically-

    1. Most Indians from my generation do not recall 1962 either, and contrary to what you believe, there is no ideological fixation in India against China. If you follow the recent media reports, if anything, relations are warming up and so is trade.

    2. I think you are holding the Chinese system far less accountable than it deserves. At the end of the day, there is just one view isn't it? The government controls the media, including restrictions on the internet. That itself is strangling human spirit enough. You say, democracy for whom? That itself is a contradictory statement. Democracy = demos + kratos, i.e., rule of the people. What is the definition of competent governing? Surely, in the Chinese context, it is a question which CCP decides, and not the Chinese people.

    3. I find your fixation with skin colour rather dubious (in any case, Indians are brown while Africans are black). I believe the GDP per capita (PPP) of Trinidad (black) is $9,500 compared to $5,000 of China (Source- CIA). The GDP per capita figure of Mauritus (brown) is $11,500. Skin colour has nothing to do with economic development. Don't you remember that the world's most prestigious and prosperous empires used to be in Africa, India and China?

    Shiny buildings in Pudong do not translate into a solid economic model. China has widespread problems containing its financial system, its SOEs, its corruption, its one party system, its inequality problem and so on.

    06 Feb 2005, 17:08

  5. Hu ZhenYu

    India is good at talking ! It is real story happened in my work place.

    I told my Chinese colleague, say today after 2 hours debating my India colleague managed to “convince me” that India military is superior than China’s. I do not really believe him, but I was not able to say any thing.

    He told me that is nothing according to India standard, his India colleague even managed to convince him that, India’s Olympic team is also superior!!!

    By the way, will you guys ever get a gold medal in Olympics?

    06 Feb 2005, 18:32

  6. Let's not generalise. I did not take your comments to be attributed to 'China'. I just took them as they were- your personal comments.

    Regarding your comments about the Indian military, the navy is definitely the strongest Asian navy (if we ignore the American 7th fleet in the Pacific). China's army and nuclear arsenal is superior to India's, and the airforce of both countries is at par with each other. Don't forget, China's best aircraft is still the Su-30MKK which is inferior to the MKI version used by India.

    China's Olympic team as a whole is far better than India's- there is no comparison. However, you would be surprised to hear that India is the country which has won the most gold medals in men's hockey in Olympic history.

    07 Feb 2005, 11:52

  7. Hu ZhenYu

    Take it easy, I have nothing against India.

    You do not yet understand Chinese ways of thinking. So it is very good that you visit China this year.

    Chinese philosophy respect humbleness. We believe one has to understand its own short coming, in order to make progress.
    So Chinese do not afraid a person that boasting a lot, Chinese will start to really worry if an opponent is very humble.

    In this case, India and Japan are in two opposite.

    India politician always exaggerate their achievements, over promise every thing. Can you give me one example, any India politician really kept his promise?
    Your formal president's "shining India" campaign is a big lie, it cost him the election.

    Japan on the other side is very humble. Peace outside, but truly aggressive inside. This is the opponent China really worried.

    07 Feb 2005, 13:24

  8. Don't worry. No offence taken. I was only replying to the points you raised in your posts above. For example, your arguments about skin colour being related to economic prosperity was something I found falacious.

    I agree with you on the worthlessness of most of India's politicians. They have held back the entrepreneurial spirit of the Indian people for over 50 years since independence. However, I would say that the tide has been turning for a while now. You might like to know that Sino-India trade is picking up as well, from close to nothing in 2000, to over $15 billion in 2004–05. Although for both countries, this is a small proportion, it is increasing by leaps and bounds.

    The fact that the G7 now invites India to its meeting just a year after it started inviting China speaks volume of the recognition of India's achievments by the international community. Don't forget, we did not get generous American help to rebuild our torn apart country like the Japanese did.

    07 Feb 2005, 15:21

  9. Hu ZhenYu

    Chinese do agree that democracy is good, and China is heading to that direction. China has chosen its own road to reach that goal, and in that subject China knows what it must do and do not need any one’s advice.

    One interesting question. Why democracy in India produces worthless politicians? What went wrong? Have any Indians ever question that?

    One thing separates Indian culture and Chinese culture; Indian culture is a conquered culture, Chinese culture is still stands on its own. The white man told you to speak English you did, white man told you to adopt their system you did. But what is India? It this a life worth fighting for?

    Chinese believe, its own culture is every bits as good as European culture. We do not need to speak English; instead we try our best the preserve the purity of our culture. Speak our own language, practice our martial arts. This way China has given the world a very valuable culture diversity; it shows to the world, apart from European culture, there is also a Yellow man’s culture in the east.

    While India is just a colony, call centre, IT service is just another way to serve your colony master. Where is India’s software products? Microsoft, Linux, Oracle, SAP which one is from India?

    07 Feb 2005, 22:47

  10. Let me deal with the cultural question first. I find it astounding that you call India a 'conquered culture', when China has been subjugated in the past by the Mongols under Chengiz and Kublai Khan, the Manchus, the British, the French, the American, the Russian, the Japanese, the Austrians, the Portugese and some other European powers. China's famous Taiping Rebellion was inspired by Christianity. China's most important religion Buddhism came from India. Emperor Guanxu's modernisation was inspired by the Japanese. Sun yat sen's Republicanism was inspired by Hitler. Mao's communism was inspired by Karl Marx.

    Where is the Chinese originality?

    Speaking the Chinese language does not entail that you preserve your culture. We Indians speak English, but we also know more than one of our native languages. I personally speak Hindi and Bengali, apart from English. Indians are multi-lingual people. It helps us integrate better in the global society, unlike the Chinese.

    Another point- culture is not something you fight to preserve, culture is something which evolves. No culture worth preserving is static.

    Now lets deal with the democracy issue. I fail to see how Chinese people are deciding their pace towards democracy. It is purely the CCP who decides. China's people have no say in it. Secondly, what gives the CCP the right to determine 1 billion Chinese' destiny, not to speak of the Tibetan and Uighurs it suppresses?

    India's democracy has been plagued because of widespread corruption, a legacy of the British rule. However, the situation is also improving through democracy. The reins of development in India remain with the hands of the people.

    08 Feb 2005, 10:22

  11. Hu ZhenYu

    Why India is always so critical about China?
    American and Europeans are all happily doing business with China and praise China's development.

    China will not give India permanent seat in UN. Hindi won't become UN official language either. Since it is against China's national interest. We always consider India and Pakistan are equal.
    This is very simple to do, just veto it.

    Like it or not. This is the way how the world works, China rules. :)

    10 Feb 2005, 13:15

  12. You made assumptions, I questioned them, you chose to ignore them and I have noted that.

    Let's move on to your latest post now. The world is not an ideal one. Of course China will try and torpedo India's bid to the UNSC, or Hindi's bid as an official UN language. But it will be an attempt made out of touch with today's reality. All we need at the moment is backing of the US- we already have UK, France and Russia on board. Once America agrees, China will think twice before considering to veto this proposal.

    Americans and Europeans are more critical of China than Indians are. It is they who always lecture the Chinese about human rights, about Tibet and democracy. Doing business is a different matter all together- that is purely down to economic policy. India has changed her economic outlook over the past 15 years, and the world is trading with India too. Even China and India are trading with each other.

    I find it hilarious that you think 'China rules'. After all being said, China's GDP is still only $1.5 trillion compared to $11 trillion of the US. I believe even Canada and Mexico have GDPs comparable to China. Moreover, China's GDP per capita is around $1,000 in real terms which makes it a poor country. It's a long way to go for China.

    If you think India and Pakistan are in the same league, that is upto you. Let me remind you though that Pakistan's GDP is around $75bn, compared to $800bn of India at market prices.

    As a saying goes, 'there is none so blind as those who do not wish to see'

    10 Feb 2005, 13:23

  13. Hu ZhenYu

    I do not think India will get the permanent seat in UNSC, in the near future. You can apply of course, but it is just not happening. This is the fact, you know also.

    We will not see India perform well in 2008 Olympic either. I am willing to bet my own money on this.

    US do not care about India, now with the war on terror, it is against US interest to introduce new member to UNSC. US is China’s best trading partner. This year, China US trade size is already exceed, Japan US trade size.

    China firmly believe, India’s claim for UNSC on population basis is not justified. True you have 1 billion people, but your overall strength is not qualified for a seat. In order for China even start to consider your member ship, we can arrange some test for India.

    1) 5 gold medal in Olympic. 1 billion people, 5 gold medal only, we believe it is a very reasonable demand.

    2) You have to trash Pakistan. Since UNSC permanent seats are reserved for super power only, not for Pakistan class power.

    3) You have to take the whole Kashmir region, since a super power cannot have border problem.

    Before you pass this test, you member ship application is not considered.

    10 Feb 2005, 17:48

  14. AChinese

    nonsense. Stop. Do sth good for the relationship between the two great countries.

    10 Feb 2005, 18:11

  15. William Wang

    I am from China and I believe China and India are two great countries. They should work together and change the world ruled currently by US.

    10 Feb 2005, 18:12

  16. Zhong Guo Ren

    Talking about conquering, Chinese conquered Turks, Huns, Korean. Did Indian conquer anybody? Go and get a Chinese history book and read the chapter of 1840–1949? You call it "CONQUERED" by the British, the French, the American, the Russian, the Japanese, the Austrians, the Portugese and some other European powers? Surprisingly after conquered by so many countries Chinese are not speaking English, French, Russian, Japanese, Portugese or some other European languages now.

    Chinese invented paper, compass, printing, powder. Did Indian invent anything except "blah blah blah"?

    10 Feb 2005, 18:48

  17. linfeng chen

    Aiming higher,push harder.Criticizing ourselves while being proud of ourselves.

    10 Feb 2005, 18:57

  18. River Tangtze

    I am just bumped into this website accidently, the key thing I believe my India freinds forgot is that:

    1. in China, no one cares how India's economy doing while Indian always try to compare itself with China.

    2. India's newpaper may do good job at brain wash poor indian people. So fly into Shanghai and tell me what's your feeling at the 1st step out of the door of flight. you must be hurt very deeply by what you see. of course, China has poor cities too.

    3. regarding to democratic and freedom, yes, India has democratic system and freedom, but unfornately inida have much more poor people than China, not even mention the slave caste system, to me, a goverment that couldn't feed its people is eveil.

    last word, my indian friend, indian people are great and intelligent but you need travel other than staying in your home and dreaming how outside world looks like.

    Travel and travel, it will display a true world, of course you have the rights to choose to be brain washed.

    10 Feb 2005, 19:18

  19. passing by

    To 20. Zhong Guo Ren:

    Please be more humble. Both China and India suffered greatly from the European colonialism. The differences in the 2 coutries were just a matter of degree.

    As for Indian inventions: India introduced the concept of zero in mathematic to China. How's that?

    As far as I am concerned, neither Chinese nor Indians can gain much by gloating about how much they had invented in the past. Both civilizations were leap-frogged by the Europeans during the Industrial Revolutions and both now are still playing catch-up. Chinese from Shanghai might look down at Indians. But they also look down on their own countrymen from the poor, interior provinces. Do Shanghai people really think they are now the king of the world? Why the snobbery?

    10 Feb 2005, 19:25

  20. Zhong Guo Ren

    To: 23

    I think Arab won't agree with you about the introdcution of zero.

    Yes, we both suffered. But I am happy that I do not have to speak English when I am calling my friends.

    Oh, "snobbery", you reminded me India's Caste and Class systems. Thanks.

    I totally agree both countries should be friends and focus on developing. The reason I am replying is I have heard enough Indian critical blah blah blah to China.

    10 Feb 2005, 20:05

  21. dragon

    I think China and India are both great nations. And they have much in common actually. They are both mild but not aggressive. That's why their coutries and cultures existed for so long. Too aggressive culture won't last, just like US. As a chinese, I think the devolepment of Idia is irresistible, just like that of China. And I definitly think that Idia will become an important member of UN. Both China and Idia will play more important roles for the peace of the world. This world should not be ruled by some people, but by all the people in the world.

    10 Feb 2005, 20:12

  22. Wang

    India is truly a great nation. She has achieved an unprecedented, genuine democracy in a populous and diverse country. The co-operation of India and China will benefit both countries and the world. I am really ashamed of the narrow-mindedness and arrogance some Chinese showed here. I hope you have a great trip in Shanghai! Looking forward to reading your findings and insights.

    10 Feb 2005, 20:25

  23. Another Chinese

    Being linked to here via another forum.

    Interesting to read, but cannot agree with some of our fellas. Why some of us always want to, and prove we are way ahead of India, and won't listen to any words pointing out our problems?

    Yes, we all know China is ahead of India in some ways, but we also know we have serious problems too, we all a long long way from standing on the top of the world.

    Save the energy finding evidence which could make us look down on India, use it on thinking how to tackle our problems, where and how Japanese and Americans are better than us.

    India is a great country, with great potentials, and we all know India did a much better job in some area, where China is lagged far behind.

    We should never underestimate anybody, just like you would not imagine Japanese and Americans would underestimate Chinese.

    the old saying posted by Aruni is exactly what I am trying to say: "there is none so blind as those who don't wish to see

    10 Feb 2005, 20:35

  24. AChinese

    Every nation has her own advantages and weakness. Be real smart, the two nations with long civilization, do not be used by others as a tool to against each other. When we are fighting, the white are snickering.

    10 Feb 2005, 20:35

  25. ting

    Let's don't forget China has Buddhsim because of India.
    Both counties have much to learn from each other.
    By the way I am from Shanghai, and have some India friends.

    10 Feb 2005, 20:38

  26. Passing by

    To 24:

    Arabs would tell you that they invented the modern script "0," but they got the CONCEPT of zero from India.

    10 Feb 2005, 21:04

  27. Huang He

    Do you speak Chinese? Can you talk to the grass root level citizens about their lives? It is good that if you can let people in India know what you have seen in China and bring people of these 2 countries closer.

    10 Feb 2005, 21:08

  28. Reader

    I would like to read Aruni Mukharjee's comments on Johngou's posts if he has any?!

    10 Feb 2005, 21:17

  29. Sosimplesometimesnaive

    New cop. Courage out of ignorance. But keep going on because that is the way people grow.

    10 Feb 2005, 21:27

  30. Overseas

    Keeping a good debate atmosphere here.
    It makes no sense to build barrier between two great countries even they have conjunt boundary.
    In my memory, the bad thing from India is that China got hurt from East Indian Company which sold thousands tones opium by force.
    Anyway, British established EIC not Indian.
    Without talking about the war in 1962, China and India should find heaps good & interesting titles to talk about.

    10 Feb 2005, 21:32

  31. Yu Liu

    Dear Zhenyu(shake the universe):

    I am shaken by your "black,yellow and white" theory! As a Chinese, I feel shame about your racial ideology. Nevertheless, I think your racial ideology is based on the false understanding of anthropology. Please don't use your "black,yellow and white" theory again! Please, "Wo Qiu Ni Le Da Ge!"

    10 Feb 2005, 21:52

  32. Yu Liu

    Dear Aruni:

    I believe you want to conduct an ethnographic research in Shanghai in 15 days. That is impossible! You probably need one year in Shanghai, then your can catch the "backstage"of Shanghai.

    Good luck!

    10 Feb 2005, 22:00

  33. stone Liu

    As for the invention of the concept "0", there is some new evidence indicating Indian was not the first to use the concept "0", but Chinese instead. Chinese had been using a "blank" as the "place holder" in their wrriten decimal systems much earlier .that might be the true origin of the concept "0" in the world.
    see this link below for details:
    link

    10 Feb 2005, 23:10

  34. johndog

    First, let me correct something here. It's same unequal in China and India, in China, there's no free education any more even though the law clearly states that. So same in India and China that law is nothing comparing to power and money. (That's why many clueless groups keep trying to perform so called "Hope Project" to raise donation for edication in China, but huge percentage of the money they raised got abusely used, that's another story)

    Yeah, India used to have great culture, but the ancient Indian were not the modern one, biologicaly. At least Chinese keep Chinese language, but where are the Indian San Scripts? The reason more and more Chinese lost hope on their government is that China is governed by Monopoly Capitalist solely. (If you say China is a communist country or anything closed to socialism, you are just a dump ass and not worth to talk to, go back to elementary school please) But in India, the situation is much worse. Most people act like a pet to Europe and America, while trying to bite China, why's that for? And seems no one is willing to change that, that means no hope for India.

    11 Feb 2005, 02:06

  35. Zhong Guo Ren

    Good point! Johndog.

    I wish all Indian could be like this forever, then they would never be Chinese competitor.

    11 Feb 2005, 02:28

  36. Iron Farmer

    Hu ZhenYu on #3:
    So far only two kinds of people has build up advanced nation in country scale, the white man and the yellow man.

    Aruni Mukherjee on #4:
    I believe the GDP per capita (PPP) of Trinidad (black) is $9,500 compared to $5,000 of China (Source- CIA). The GDP per capita figure of Mauritus (brown) is $11,500. Skin colour has nothing to do with economic development. Don't you remember that the world's most prestigious and prosperous empires used to be in Africa, India and China?
    ——————

    I dont agree with the color things. But I must point out Aruni's
    reply did not hit the target. Trimidad lives on selling natural
    resource for food. have pop barely tops 1 M. If its population
    is more dense, it will be poorer than India. It does not have advance
    technology. How can you prove it "build up advanced nation in country scale".
    Your second example is more or less in the same class. I cant say
    they are advanced nations.

    —————————-
    Aruni Mukherjee on #4:
    I think you are holding the Chinese system far less accountable than it deserves. At the end of the day, there is just one view isn't it? The government controls the media, including restrictions on the internet. That itself is strangling human spirit enough. You say, democracy for whom? That itself is a contradictory statement. Democracy = demos + kratos, i.e., rule of the people. What is the definition of competent governing? Surely, in the Chinese context, it is a question which CCP decides, and not the Chinese people.
    —————————-

    CCP or Democracy, which is better? Political system is a tool, not
    a goal. Smart people in different time and environment use
    different tools. A good tool make things better and get jobs
    done fast. By this way, China has far better tools now.

    ———————————
    Aruni Mukherjee on #10:
    when China has been subjugated in the past by the Mongols under Chengiz and Kublai Khan, the Manchus, the British, the French, the American, the Russian, the Japanese, the Austrians, the Portugese and some other European powers. China's famous Taiping Rebellion was inspired by Christianity. China's most important religion Buddhism came from India.

    Where is the Chinese originality?
    Speaking the Chinese language does not entail that you preserve your culture. We Indians speak English, but we also know more than one of our native languages. I personally speak Hindi and Bengali, apart from English. Indians are multi-lingual people. It helps us integrate better in the global society, unlike the Chinese.
    ———————————
    Mongols, ..the Manchus they won the wars against China. They
    conquered China in military, but miracle was made by Chinese
    in human history. Their civilization were conquered by Chinese
    civilization. Chinese culture survived. Japan and the West
    invaded China, but they did not change China culture nor control
    China completely. Chinese language last until now since it was
    born. I dont see India was in this case.

    11 Feb 2005, 03:09

  37. Iron Farmer

    ——————————-
    Hu ZhenYu #11;
    China will not give India permanent seat in UN. Hindi won't become UN official language either. Since it is against China's national interest. We always consider India and Pakistan are equal.
    This is very simple to do, just veto it.
    ——————————-

    Wrong! India got 4 supports from the 5 UN powers. China was
    one of the every frontier to support India. China wants the 3rd
    World presents more in UN. Besides India, China also support Brazil
    and Egypt. the only one against India is United States. That
    is enough to block India, US has supper power to stand along.

    —————————-
    Aruni Mukherjee #12:
    I find it hilarious that you think 'China rules'. After all being said, China's GDP is still only $1.5 trillion compared to $11 trillion of the US. I believe even Canada and Mexico have GDPs comparable to China. Moreover, China's GDP per capita is around $1,000 in real terms which makes it a poor country. It's a long way to go for China.
    —————————-

    I thought Aruni have good math and numbers. Canada and Mexico are
    barely on top of India, How can they match China. There are only
    5 countries has GDP over China: US, Japan, German, British, France.

    -by Iron Farmer

    11 Feb 2005, 03:11

  38. Hongbo

    It is strange that a rather academic debate can turn into an emotional bashing of each other, first between a Chinese and an Indian and later somehow among the Chinese guys. In such a context, no issues can be addressed objectively. Come on, Aruni is yet to make his/her trip. Let him/her to find out. It would be quite interesting to see the final report. Then everyone here can have his/her say.

    11 Feb 2005, 11:01

  39. It is great to see so much interest being generated by my blog. I will appreciate if people did not post pictures or news or copy from other forums here. Let's keep this discussion original, shall we?

    For all the posters who have expressed feelings of India-China solidarity, I congratulate you. I could not agree more. Two ancient civilisations need to work closely together to forge a friendly relationship.

    I'll respond to the more critical messages in brief-

    Hu Zhen Hu

    The arguments you present against India's bid for UNSC seat is laughable. Let us look at it more closely-

    (a) Every country has its enemy in the international circuit. India has Pakistan, just like the US has Iran, North Korea, Libya, etc. and China has Taiwan, Japan, etc. At least Pakistan is a nuclear armed state (thanks to China). So are you too scared to pick on someone your own size?

    (b) If India has problems in Kashmir, then China also has problems in Tibet and Xingjiang. The US has problems with the whole Middle East. What's your point?

    (c) I explained in my last post that it shows your gross ignorance if you compare India with Pakistan. Just take a look at the size of the economy and per capita incomes- all will be clear.

    To look at the positives, India is a democracy of 1 billion people. It is a free society, a responsible nuclear power (unlike France, US, Russia and China on the UNSC) and has no territorial ambitions (unlike Russia and China on the UNSC). All arguments against India for the UNSC seat are hypocritical.

    Zhong Guo Ren

    The history of both India and China have been marred with conquests and defeats. Indian empires, in the last 5 millenia, have been stretching at some point or the other between Iran in the north west to Indonesia in the south east.

    I think you are accusing India of copying foreigners when I showed in my last post that China has borrowed equally, if not more. I'll list them again- Mongols, Manchus, Christianity, Buddhism, 100 days reform, Republicanism, Maoism, etc. You also ignore that Indians too speak their own languages. But we also speak English. That is purely because we are devoid of fruitless arrogance.

    Chinese inventions are impressive. But I think you're giving India too little credit. India invented the number system, the higher education system, medicine, navigation among others. On a lighter note, we also invented the sex manual- ever heard of the Kamasutra?

    11 Feb 2005, 11:49

  40. River Tangtze

    China's economy is double the size of India- of course it aims higher. At the moment India will be happy to match China is most sectors, we are generally far behind. However, if you have been following Xinhua, the CCP is falling over itself in inviting Indian software and pharmaseutical companies. If you check Beijing and Shanghai's Yellow Pages, you'll be surprised to note the Indian presence there.

    Yu Liu

    I want to spend 2–4 weeks in Shanghai to do a basic study. Later in my life, I plan to spend considerable time in China researching. At the moment I am in the process of finding funding for this project.

    Johndog

    Lest you forget, Sanskrit is the mother of all European languages (not speaking of Indian languages). No most of us do not speak Sanskrit. We speak our derivative languages instead- like Hindi, Bengali, Tamil, Telegu, Kannadda, Punjabi, etc. But then again, how many Europeans speak Latin?

    Iron Farmer

    If GDP per capita is not indicative of wealth of a nation, then what is? Keep in mind that these countries are much more equal than China as well.

    Indeed political systems evolve. But if the people have no say in the evolution, then it is null and void.

    You have no idea about Indian history- just a lot of prejudice. The Mughals were invaders initially, then they became Indians, so were the Turks who came before then. Ever heard of the language Urdu? It is Arabic influenced by Hindi, spoken by Indian Muslims.

    India and China have a strikingly similar history, and you must come into the light and see this blatant fact.

    11 Feb 2005, 11:50

  41. Fellow

    I personally have nothing against the Chinese. Both cultures have their own strong and weak points. Trying to compete with each other is pointless atthe moment. And it is true that India did invent the 0, just like it is true that China invented gunpowder.
    There is no reason to squabble when we can instead concentrate on increasing trade and makjing both nations stronger.

    11 Feb 2005, 12:02

  42. oneman28

    China has been a united country for 2000 years. Qin united China and all chinese has been using same writing, same mesurement unit since then.

    Chinese don't determine a person's fate by his birth. Chinese only believe success. Then a peasent could overturn a emperor and he could be an emperor himself. A poor can gain his political, or ecnomical, social status by education, business or even war.

    China was invaded by other minorities in the history. But those minorities either disappeared or merged themselves into China. Xunlu invaded China around 2000 years ago. It disappeared. Mongols ruled China for about 80 years(around 700 years ago), it merged into China (outer mogonia was seperated after ww2). It also brought Tibet and other area into China since then. Manchurian ruled China, it lost its own culture and also merged itself to China too. No matter who invaded China, it has to adapt itself to Chinese culture, has to use Chinese political system. That's why more than 92% of Chinese think they are Han people.

    Han culture is so strong and we respect minorities culture since we don't worry about ours.

    Speaking of the current economy, China's reform statrted from agriculture and was expanded to industry and service. Also China allocated a lot of resources to inland area between 60s to 70s. After reform shift more resources to the coastal area. Since 2000, Chinese gov decided to shift emphasis to the western area. All Chinese benifited from the reform.

    You deleted my two links showing the urban areas across China. What I wanted to show you is the reform all over China.

    Only very few of Indians gained from India's reform. It makes the rich richer. That's why Vipajee's party lost its position since majority of Indians have nothing to do with the reform.

    Startpoint of the reforms of these two countries are different. Thanks for the sanctions from outside in the early years. China established a complete industrial system. Iron and steel production in 1978 is more than Indian today's output. India had to import rocket engine even in 1995. and China launched satellite in 1971.

    11 Feb 2005, 16:13

  43. Rendezvous

    I think it's very interesting that Aruni is visiting Shanghai —- a bold project, comparing Mumbai and Shanghai. I would be interested in reading his experiences.

    I believe that China has had a very rich and sophisticated past. I believe India has as well. One difference I see between ancient Eastern cultures and Western ones is the philosophical component. While philosophy was a staple in Eastern cultures, it was restricted to the elites in ancient Western cultures. This is also reflected in the religions that originated in these parts. I am an Indian. I have had many discussions with my supervisor, an ethnic Chinese whom I hold in high esteem, about similarities in our cultures, as well as differences. There are too many to list.

    I am surprised by Chinese posters who appear to think that India lost its culture after invasions. This is a misconception. I do not know very much about China, but it is indeed remarkable that it has maintained an unbroken culture for 2000 years. As a matter of fact, the same is true of many parts of Indian culture. Ancient Hindu and Buddhist culture has been preserved, as have arts that originated back in antiquity, and Sanskrit – the mother language of the entire Indo-European family, dating back at least a thousand years BC. But India didn't refuse change, either. India has never been content with its extant culture. Every invasion brought new ideas in the hands of the invaders. As with China, the invaders were absorbed in almost all cases. Such fusions created new subcultures in India.

    Synthesis of Greek ideas with Indian architectural norms is evident in several pieces of ancient Indian architecture. Muslim architecture (Mughal and pre-Mughal) shows older Indian influences; we Indians consider it to be very beautiful. More recently, during the rule of the British, Western architecture has had a strong influence.

    Indian classical music, one of the great formal music systems, is traditionally considered to be based on ancient Vedic texts, but was also patronized and influenced by the Mughals (who were Indianized by the time of Humayun). The veena, a stringed musical instrument so ancient that its beginnings are unknown, is still used today, and new electronic veenas have been invented. This is not an example of cultural loss, but of cultural evolution. The tabla (a prominent percussion instrument) is the culmination of a series of drum-like percussion instruments with Mughal influence.

    Indian literature evolved on its own for a very long time, without outside influences. Elaborate grammars and systems of prosody were invented. (These prosodic systems are visible even today in local languages.) There was an evolution of the Tamil language independent of Sanskrit. Later, literature in India was influenced by our interaction with various peoples. Even the British rule, which some posters seem to believe has destroyed Indian culture, gave rise to some new forms of poetry and literature in India. (This is not British poetry. It is Indian poetry influenced by the British.) India embraced cinema early, almost as soon as it came out. Indian cinema has tremendous influence in the Indian subcontinent (even in Pakistan). Interestingly, Indian movies were enjoyed in countries outside the subcontinent as well.

    Many posters seem to think it is wrong to adopt foreigners' languages, such as English. This has always been India's way; we don't say NO to linguistic change. Sanskrit evolved into at least 20 purely indigenous languages in India, as well as hundreds of dialects. This was without invader influence. When India was invaded, we got even more languages. There are many millions speaking each language, and none of these languages is in danger of extinction. There many Indians, even today, outside of academic circles, who use sanskrit. Sanskrit is a living language.

    11 Feb 2005, 20:13

  44. Rendezvous

    I would like to point out that change takes many forms, and posters who assume that India is selling its culture out when it adopts a new language or new norms are mistaken (See above post). I would like to point out some practices that are prevalent among Chinese immigrants in the US. I hasten to add that there is nothing wrong with these practices; I am trying to illustrate that cultures respond to external influence in different ways.

    In the US, it is common for Chinese immigrants to adopt an "English name". This is not to say it is universal, but perhaps 30% of Chinese immigrant whom I've met do this. Many immigrants also join churches and convert to Christianity in order to be more socially acceptable. This is just a way for them to blend into American society.

    Most Indians immigrants tend not to adopt new names or change (or adopt a new) religion. Often, names are shortened so that they are easier to pronounce.

    Again, I don't think this demonstrates that Chinese culture is "weak", "conquered", etc. Chinese culture is indeed one of the strongest, most vibrant cultures, as evidenced by the Chinatowns in US cities. Americans enjoy partaking of the culture. By the same token, Indian culture is also celebrated in various parts of the world, notably in the UK.

    11 Feb 2005, 20:21

  45. Rendezvous

    I would like to point out that change takes many forms, and posters who assume that India is selling its culture out when it adopts a new language or new norms are mistaken (See above post). I would like to point out some practices that are prevalent among Chinese immigrants in the US. I hasten to add that there is nothing wrong with these practices; I am trying to illustrate that cultures respond to external influence in different ways.

    In the US, it is common for Chinese immigrants to adopt an "English name". This is not to say it is universal, but perhaps 30% of Chinese immigrant whom I've met do this. Many immigrants also join churches and convert to Christianity in order to be more socially acceptable. This is just a way for them to blend into American society.

    Most Indians immigrants tend not to adopt new names or change (or adopt a new) religion. Often, names are shortened so that they are easier to pronounce.

    Again, I don't think this demonstrates that Chinese culture is "weak", "conquered", etc. Chinese culture is indeed one of the strongest, most vibrant cultures, as evidenced by the Chinatowns in US cities. Americans enjoy partaking of the culture. By the same token, Indian culture is also celebrated in various parts of the world, notably in the UK.

    11 Feb 2005, 20:22

  46. Huang He

    To Rendezvous,

    Very Good post! Very informative to me. I hope we will see more posts like this.
    One thing about the Chinese language is it evolves slower because it is a language based on form or picture rather pronunciation. It is helpful to keep the continuity of culture as well as the unity of the nation. But the evolution of indian culture is really impressive for me and I wonder maybe we Chinese should learn from that.

    11 Feb 2005, 20:42

  47. Hu ZhenYu

    Indian’s true problem is Indian culture, Indian culture lack of accountability.
    You talk too much and do too little. You distort history as your will, to talk always every thing.

    Accountability, do you understand? Have you ever see India politician say, I am sorry, I am responsible for this?

    Democracy’s something good, but it does not help too much if the culture and race is inferior.

    12 Feb 2005, 08:32

  48. stone Liu

    some comments on Aruni's research project.

    Frankly, I think the proposed project is too ambitious, not realistic.

    Aruni propose to get a conclusion on these topics:

    * Factors of production- business environment, quality of workforce, infrastructure, investor perception, political environment etc.

    * Losers of growth- the extent to which their economic boom is equitably distributed.

    * Performance of domestic industry- How Indian companies are faring in Shanghai and their Chinese counterparts in Mumbai.

    * The soul of each city- popular places of urban life and entertainment and changing trends.

    with ONLY 15 DAYS each in Shanghai and Mumbai!!! and he is a foreigner and stranger, being not able to speak and read in local language in shanghai. I would say, that's a mission impossible at all. What you get will be only a single facet of the facts you want. it does not help to draw any conclusion on the comparism of the two cities.
    Maybe Aruni should change the target of the project to something like: Empirical comparism of buildings height of Shanghai and Mumbai.

    12 Feb 2005, 11:36

  49. stone Liu

    To Hu ZhengYu,

    I don't agree with your post #47. nations could be advanced or backward, rich or poor. but no nations are superious or inferious. world changes every minute, no advantage last forever. let along China has not too much advantage against India.

    12 Feb 2005, 11:48

  50. Oneman

    China’s borders have constantly been changing. It has never been one static Empire. It has been occupied in the past by many foreign powers. The Qing were from Manchuria and considered barbarians by most Chinese, who wanted the return of the Ming.

    India’s caste system is not birth based, however much it has been distorted recently. I remember the Confucian ladder in the Chinese society similar to the caste system. If you’re referring to the first Ming emperor being a peasant, I’d like to draw your attention to Chandragupta Maurya, the first emperor of the Maurya empire in India- he was a mere commoner as well.

    If you’re saying Han culture is tolerant, how come the Tibetans and Uighurs disagree?

    As I said, the histories of both India and China are strikingly similar, like it or not.

    Huange He

    I believe Chinese culture is evolutionary as well- after all you did incorporate Buddhism from India, allow the Manchus to rule China, adopt Marxism into Maoism, etc. I strongly believe that China’s culture is one of the richest in the world- and that is why it is evolutionary.

    I repeat myself- ‘No culture worth preserving is static’

    Hu Zhen Yu

    I don’t like censorship in general, and would hate to censor messages on my blog. But please stop making direct racist comments.

    Prove that Indian ‘race’ is inferior. Are you trying to explain the concept of accountability to a working democracy like India (albeit with glitches) when CCP censors Chinese press, imprisons demonstrators, loans vanish, profits soar, etc. How can you even talk about accountability when CCP hides details about AIDS and SARS from the Chinese people? Have the perpetrators of Tiananmen been ever held accountable?

    Stone Liu

    I realise that the project is too big for 4 weeks- I have made it compact precisely because I have not got the financial resources to carry out such a big project effectively.

    12 Feb 2005, 15:20

  51. oneman28

    Speaking of the Tibetans and Uighurs, Han people never have trouble in religion with them. There is even a Yong He Temple, that's for Tibetan Lammas. It has been there for serveral hundred of years. Also a lot of Han people believe in Tibetan Buddism.

    Tibet became a part of China since Yuan, more than 700 hundred years ago. Xinjiang, even longer. The best temples in Tibet and Xingjiang for Tibetan and Uighurs were actually built or rebuilt by the central gov.

    Te minorities in China actually enjoy more previlidges than our Han people. For example, In Beijing, most of grocery stores have two sets of cutting tools, one for Muslims, anther for others. Minorities are not included in the family planing policy, they can have more than one kids while the family planing policy is a must for Han people.

    Not only Yuan dynasty's emperor family was peasant. Some other peasant uprising also overturned emperor. They only last short time due to the corruption or mismanagement.

    Confucism is only a part of Chinese culture. He did say lower rank people should obey the upper. But the precondition is that the upper rank people should be nice and respectable. Confucis also encourage people to gain his social status by education. In almost every dynasty, China had nationwide examination to select best educated people as officials no matter in which family he was from. Score was the only standard. Also because of this, education of the Chinese kids are the most important thing for their families no matter they are rich or poor.

    China was ocupied only by Mongols and Manchurians in the long history. the result is both minorities were merged themselves into China family.

    12 Feb 2005, 18:00

  52. Iron Farmer

    —-China was ocupied only by Mongols and Manchurians in the long history. the result is both minorities were merged themselves into China family.

    Chinese civilization is containing.
    The West civilization is conquering.
    India civilization is conquered.

    Containing is deep and intelligent. Soft yet tough,
    That is why Chinese civilization last 5000 to now.
    Conquering is hard, but brittle, number of West empires
    had very shot life. Being conquered is of cause week
    and brittle.

    —You have no idea about Indian history
    —India and China have a strikingly similar history, and you must come into the light and see this blatant fact.

    Aruni, you avoided many arguments and modified the topics.
    I don’t want to get in deep in that. If you believe they were
    Similar history, then go on your own way. For me, even Brit
    Invaded China, Mongols occupied China. Chinese system did
    not change, Chinese culture stays the same, speak the same.
    In Mongols case, China gained large piece of land ended up.
    Compared British to India, I hardly find a similarity.

    13 Feb 2005, 03:13

  53. Iron Farmer

    —-with ONLY 15 DAYS each in Shanghai and Mumbai!!! and he is a foreigner and stranger, being not able to speak and read in local language in shanghai. I would say, that's a mission impossible at all. What you get will be only a single facet of the facts you want. it does not help to draw any conclusion on the comparism of the two cities.

    Yes, you reminded me. I read an article about a s.Korea profession took a trip to China. He met with Korean a businessman over there. The man told him, he though he's a doctor of knowing China after a week being there. He felt he's a master after a month. Then again he told the professor said he think himself a bachelor after a year.

    So, in 15 DAYS, you may write a report in master degree level.

    13 Feb 2005, 03:39

  54. Hu ZhenYu

    I start to use racialist languages, since it is very frustrating to debate with Indians.

    Since they avoid many arguments and modify the topics. Picking up things as proof that is not really related. Indians can always win a quarrel, but when come to action, it is too weak to achieve any thing. While China’s practical people, we believe in power and hardware.

    Any one can see it very clearly, India does not want good things happen to China. “They are not with us!” The way India talk about Pakistan is racialist. They always think they are better then Pakistan. Are they? Same kind of people, same language. I do not see any difference.

    India is an aggressive nation, but with very weak power. It has bad relationship with all its neighbours. It occupies a small country called Sikim. It develop weapon of mess destruction.

    China is a peace nation, but with muscle. We could turn India into a back yard tea plant in 1962, but we chosen to give India freedom instead.

    13 Feb 2005, 11:18

  55. Oneman

    I think most of the free world would disagree that Tibetans and Uighurs have no problems with Han migrants. We hear regular reports of violence in these areas, which is mainly due to jobs being whisked away from the local people in favour of the migrants.

    There is a habit amongst Chinese to claim as theirs whatever they once held. I think if we further that logic further, Mongolia should own China since Chengiz Khan once occupied China. In today's world where democratic ideals are accepted as desirable, I think the decision should be left to the people. Certainly that is not the case in China's Turkistan (Xingjiang) and Tibet.

    Please don't talk about minority rights. India specialises in minority rights, even at the expense of its Hindu majority.

    Unlike Confucianism, there is no social ladder in the Indian caste system. You are not born into a caste- you take a caste according to your occupation, which you choose with your own free will. Just like Confucianism has been corrupted, so has the Indian caste system.

    Iron Farmer

    A saying goes, 'There is none so blind as those who do not wish to see'

    Let's see how the Chinese 'contained'-

    What does CCP stand for? Chinese Communist Party. Where did the philosophy come into China? From Stalinist Russia. Where did KMT's Republicanism before that come from? Hitler's Germany. Where did Chinese modernisation under Emperor Guanxu come from? Imperial Japan.

    Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others.

    Now, let's see how Indian culture is 'contained'-

    The Arabs invaded India 1200 years ago. But do the Indian Muslims speak Arabic? No. They speak Urdu, an Indian language. Today the Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs in India celebrate Diwali, the Indian festival of light. Originally however, the festival was exclusively Hindu. Today Chicken Tikka Masala is officially the most popular British dish. Bhangra music rocks every major nightclub on the British high street. Indian films are watched by more people in the world than any other film industry including Hollywood.

    Is that being 'conquered'?

    LEST PEOPLE MISUNDERSTAND, I HAVE THE DEEPEST RESPECT FOR CHINA'S TRADITION AND CULTURE. ALL I WANT TO SHOW IS THAT JUST LIKE INDIAN CULTURE HAS HAD PHASES, SO HAS CHINESE. NO CULTURE IS STATIC.

    Hu Zhen Yu

    Every single individual on this planet who debates modifies the available evidence to his advantage. What you claim as 'facts' are simple distorted history dished out by CCP. You must understand and respect other people's opinions- being racist will only show your true colour.

    If you say Indians do not want good things for China, can you sincerely say that the opposite is true? You say you're people of action- what have your actions shown us so far? Propping up Pakistan, funding Maoism in India, claiming our state as part of PRC- is this a conducive signal?

    How can you call India aggressive when it has not crossed its borders in its history of 5,000 years or more? I think even the CCP has recognised Sikkim as an integral part of India.

    I think you have been taking some drugs about 1962. As far as the official count goes, both sides lost 500 soldiers. Chinese supply lines and logistics were strained to the point of breaking down, and they stopped the skirmish when they had the upper hand just to save face. Remember, that our China 'loving' PM Nehru did not allow us to use the IAF.

    13 Feb 2005, 12:59

  56. stone Liu

    Aruni, I think you got wrong information about the war in 1962.

    Suggest to read "India's China War" wrriten by Neville Maxwell, a pro-India British author. Though all the historical record used in his book came from Indian side, as he wrote in the last chapter of the book: " Militarily the Chinese victory was complete, the Indian defeat absolute."

    About Nehru's reaction after the elite of the "mighty" Indian army was destroied by only 3 divisions of Chinese PLA, Maxwell wrote: " On November 20, the American Ambassador noted 'ultimate panic in Delhi, the first time I have ever witnessed the disintegration of public morale.' Fear was in the air, and rumors were spreading that the Chinese were about to take Tezpur, even land paratroops in the capital, and that General Kaul was taken prisoner. Late that night Nehru made an urgent and open appeal for the intervention of the United States with bombers and fighters squadrons to go into action against the Chinese."

    Check this link for the whole book of Maxwell:
    link

    And other link of an Indian website to memorize the 1962 war, contain more objective records.
    link

    About the casualties of both sides, 500:500 is obviously wrong. Western propaganda is always pro India and against communist China, don't take their claim too serious. Of course Chinese claim is not exactly either. But since both the Maxwell's book and other Indian websides I can find didn't mention the casualties, I put the casualties estimated by Chinese side here for a reference:

    Casualties of 1962 war:
    India: 8900 (about 5000 captured)

    The Brigadier of the 62nd Brigade General Singh was killed and the Brigadier of the 7th Brigade General Dalvi was captured.

    China: 2400 (no one captured)

    13 Feb 2005, 14:06

  57. Do you even know where Tezpur is? How can you even make the preposterous claim that Chinese paratroopers were even close to Delhi? The war was limited to the north east corner of India.

    You should have read my previous post carefully- I did mention that the war ended with the Chinese side on the upper hand.

    Finally, who gave you the wrong impression that western media has been more favourable to India than China? They criticise India just as much as China. Just read their articles on Kashmir.

    I, for one will buy the figures almost unanimously quoted by all of the respected western media and the Indian media. Not for one moment I am going to buy the figures of a closed authoritiarian society. If you haven't visited India, you won't realise how critical our own press is towards our country.

    13 Feb 2005, 14:12

  58. oneman28

    It is obvious the thread owner don't know anything about Chinese minorities.

    Han people take away jobs from Tibetian and Uighurs? What a joke. I bet the "free media" is only your resources. If you go to Tibet or Xingjiang, you will get different. Central gov. gives more than 6 billion RMB aid to Tibet each year (There are only 2 million people). Very few Han people like to work in Tibet due to high attitute. Even Dala knows it is not realistic to seperate Tibet from China now mainly due to the economical reasons.

    Xingjiang is about 1.6m squre KM. 1/3 occupied by mongonian (there is a mongonian automomous area in Xingjiang). Vighurs only occupy a part of Xingjiang (mainly less developed southern Xingjiang). Xingjiang is also a remote area in China. Few han people like to work there.

    Tibet and Xingjiang have been in China for serveral hundred years. This is a fact not only a cliam. You get it?

    I do agree Mongonians should own China, just like more than 50 minorities. 2/3 of mongonians in the world are living in China. 1/3 live in outter mongonia today.

    I agree that 15 days is too short to do this kind of investigation. It could be just a trip for fun, not for research.

    13 Feb 2005, 16:18

  59. Iron Farmer

    ==Ever heard of the language Urdu? It is Arabic influenced by Hindi, spoken by Indian Muslims.
    ==What does CCP stand for? Chinese Communist Party. Where did the philosophy come into China? From Stalinist Russia. Where did KMT's Republicanism before that come from? Hitler's Germany. Where did Chinese modernisation under Emperor Guanxu come from? Imperial Japan.

    Aruni,
    forget about the 1962, since both side governments did not let
    out a word, you dont know much more than anybody else here.
    I know you meant CCP was the system China copied from West.
    You may argue copy is same as Iraq which forced to adopt election,
    result is the same. I found one different is sovereignty. CCP
    is a big success in China. This system was not a brand new system
    in China. Interesting, China had some new discovery of the
    history of Chuen, one the of 7 seven state united China. Chuen's
    political system was more communist than CCP. Even farming
    tools and animals were own by central government.

    About philosophy and language, please read the following link,
    dont laugh at yourself after reading.

    —————————-
    Hindi borrowing from Sanskirt and Urdu borrowing from Arabic and Persian. Hindi-Urdu, however, because it grew up under the Moslem Moghul Emperors, originally had a Persian and Arabic component, which survives even in Hindi. "Hindi" [Hyndi] itself is from Arabic Hindî,,Both Hindi and Urdu have borrowed from English and other modern languages.

    The Indus Valley of India is where the next civilization emerges, again with evidence of Sumerian influence. The Indus pictographic script is not well attested and remains undeciphered. Nor, unlike hieroglyphics and cuneiform, are there any bilingual texts to aid in decipherment. The problem is that the Indus Valley civilization did not survive, flourishing only from around 2800 to 1500.
    While contact between Sumeria, Egypt, and the Indus occurred early, the fourth center of civilization, in China, remained relatively isolated and emerged considerably later, with the Shang Dynasty, about the time that India has passsing temporarily out of history. Of all the early systems of writing, Chinese Characters, the direct descendants of Shang pictographs, are the only one still in use today. The Indian system, of course, ended with the Indus civilization.
    The age was also one of religious innovation. In India, where religion and philosophy remain closely related, Buddhism, Jainism, and Upanishadic Hinduism straddle the distinction. In China, schools that are pretty purely philosophical, Confucianism and Taosim, eventually attract religious elements and grow, with Buddhism, into the three religious "Ways" of Chinese civilization. Greek religion, of course, was doomed to extinction, replaced by Prophetic Judaism and its daughter religions, Christianity and Islâm.

    link

    13 Feb 2005, 16:21

  60. Oneman

    The question is not whether China has occupied Tibet and Xingjiang for decades, but whether the people consented. The answer is no, and therefore the occupation is illegal. Period.

    I know 15 days is too short a trip to do a deep and meaningful research. My main reason is financial constraint. If I find a backer who is willing to grant more money, I will gladly spend more time in China.

    Iron Farmer

    Firstly, I would recommend you to filter your sources before you read them and treat them as sermons.

    Secondly, the article clearly states that Urdu took from Sanskrit and Hindi. Arabic speakers merged into the Indian mainstream thus. Modern Hindi and Urdu have both borrowed from each other. However, Sanskrit remains the mother of all Indo-European languages. Just go to any reputable encyclopedia, and all will be clear. The article also mentions various connections between Indian Buddhism and China which affected the latter's culture.

    It just proves my point- 'No culture worth preserving is static'

    13 Feb 2005, 16:41

  61. oneman28

    Good point.

    Today, most of Tibetans and Vighurs are enjoyiing the medical system, education system, agricultual tech, finnancial surpport, infrastructual improvement …..provided by central gov. I do believe some want the independence, but most of them still like to stay in China, Dalai is a perfect example.

    Tibet and Xingjiang have been in China for more than 700 years, not only decades. That's big difference.

    I hope India can give the freedom to Kashmiar and let the residents to determine if they want to stay in India.

    13 Feb 2005, 17:06

  62. Hu zhenYu

    I think it is time now to give India a sound beat, to make it clear who is the boss. Our formal emperor Mao Zedong’s original plan for 1962 war, was one war in exchange for 30 years peace. Now 30 years has long passed. It seems the India has already forgot about the pain.

    Aruni is an Indian nationalist. We are Chinese nationalist. When two national interest clash. Talking is waste of time. So let’s fight. Any time any where.

    Swedish and Finnish people hates each other also. So they have yearly Finland Sweden sports game. Two sides really fights hard. Most of Finland’s sports record is made in Finnish Swedish game rather than Olympic games.

    Should we make an India China sports game every year? I promise you, China will trash India in every thing, if we want Hockey included.

    In the sports field you can clearly see India and China are made of different material. There is no comparison for passion and resolution. After all vegetarians and cow worships are not super power material.

    13 Feb 2005, 17:14

  63. Oneman

    Again you miss the point. The question still remains, 'Who gave CCP the power to decide the fate of Tibetans and Uighurs?' Dalai Lama has resigned to the situation- he has never accepted China's occupation of his land.

    Regarding Kashmir, you forget that India is committed to the UN to holding a plebicite in the valley at some point. However, you cannot have elections on gunpoint. The terrorism has to stop- the real Kashmiris (the Hindu minority long uprooted from the valley) need to return to their ancestral home, let peace settle in, then elections are welcome.

    Hu Zhen Yu

    You need to think and read clearly. China is far ahead of India in economic development (in most areas) and in the sporting arena. Have I ever denied that? In any case, I don't think China can match India in cricket, tennis, hockey, chess, etc. So don't discard us completely.

    What I do take exception to is your claim that somehow Indians are inferior. I argue that it is because of our policy, not because of our culture or race.

    There is no question of India-China war in the near future. Both countries are feverishly concentrated on economic development, and if anything, relationships are tipped to get closer. China will eventually recognise Arunachal as part of the union of India, and other border disputes will be settled bilaterally.

    This is Asia's century- and India and China will not let petty skirmishes ruin it.

    13 Feb 2005, 17:31

  64. oneman28

    You still missed the point. Not the CCP determine the Tibetans and Uighurs's fate. The 700 hundred year history and reality determine that they are a part of China. CCP cannot decide this.

    Afganistan and Iraq even have elections. Why not Kashmir if Indian gov really beleive in the freedom. I believe India will lost it in a free election.

    13 Feb 2005, 17:41

  65. Tibet was never consenting part of China. The Qing court had 'influence' in Tibet, but it only became part of China through invasion. Same is the case with Turkistan. 700 years or 7,000- where there is no will, there is no legitimacy.

    Who gave you the idea that Afghanistan elections were free? The turnout was pitiable, and the government in Kabul just rules Kabul. The rest of the country is ruled by druglords and war barons. In Iraq, elections were relatively successful because the Shias were a majority. If Shias were kicked out of the country, would the elections succeed? Also, Sunnis abstained in general from Iraq's election.

    In Kashmir, the Hindus have been uprooted by insurgents. When they are installed there, only then can an election take place.

    13 Feb 2005, 17:52

  66. oneman28

    In China's history, Chinese emperors usually did not send officials to minority-living area. Yuan, Ming, Qing dynasties did the sameting. You even said, Qing court had influence in Tibet. It proves Tibet is a part of China. Otherwise, how a country's court has influence in another country.

    If follow your logic, Vighurs also came from outside. Then let Xingjiang people to elect, Uighurs will not seperated since they are a minority even in Xingjiang.

    13 Feb 2005, 18:10

  67. Influence does not translate into occupation. China got Buddhism from India, does that mean China belongs to India? No it doesn't. Uighurs are the people who lived in Turkistan, which was invaded and occupied by Qing forces when they refused to hand over their sovereignty, just like Tibet.

    13 Feb 2005, 18:14

  68. oneman28

    Don't mix up the religion and the court. Buddy!!

    If Indian court had influence in China, I would agree with you.

    13 Feb 2005, 20:32

  69. So basically you're saying that any country part of the tribute system belongs to China. By that logic, the whole stretch of land between Iran and Indonesia is India. Modern society does not work on that crooked logic- it rests on consenting individuals agreeing to shun some of their liberty to a governing body which strives to preserve the collective liberty.

    Of course, this is a concept long lost on some people.

    13 Feb 2005, 20:45

  70. oneman28

    Do you know Tibetan religion leader selection must get a nod from Chinese emperor?

    Where is the Indian influence in other countries? especially court. Iran? Indonisia?

    From the argument, I do believe you are not a reasonable person to do this kind of research.

    13 Feb 2005, 21:18

  71. Hu ZhenYu

    Talking is cheap, action is real.

    Today whenever people ask me why China occupy Tibet. I just say very frankly, we like it. You can say China is an aggressor, but at least we are honest.

    Why do we have to discuss about Tibet? What is your value proposition? What do I get if I convince you Tibet should be part of China? What does it matter, if you do not like it?

    The fact remains simple, Tibet is part of China. If you do not agree, then try to get there without a Chinese visa. If you can do that, then you are the man!

    13 Feb 2005, 22:40

  72. Iron Farmer

    Aruni typed:
    ==#55 Where did the philosophy come into China? From Stalinist Russia. Where did KMT's Republicanism before that come from? Hitler's Germany.

    —#60 Firstly, I would recommend you to filter your sources before you read them and treat them as sermons.
    —Secondly, the article clearly states that Urdu took from Sanskrit and Hindi.

    Aruni Mukherjee, you said I dont understand India history.
    fine, I never go detail on each topic on India. Then I show
    you on #59 which was different to what you claimed.
    returned to #55, you were completely wrong. From Russia?
    Chinese is the civilization, culture and philosophy
    center of the East. Please post a source of any those from
    Russia. And KMT, I am not a fans of it. it was extremely
    corrupted. When Japan invaded China during WW-II, he
    ordered the Chinese defense not to shoot a bullet until lost
    3 provinces to Japan. Hei, Indians are more like Hitler's
    Germany than KMT.

    I really dont like this character like you behaved. Pointed
    white for black, told lies to the world as true and repeat
    as true under the sun and God.

    ==Tibet was never consenting part of China. The Qing court had 'influence' in Tibet, but it only became part of China through invasion.

    That was why India promoted and supported 1959 anti-China
    and separatism in Tibet? Supplied them with US and Indian
    made advance weapon. At the time they lost to central
    government, then India homed 130,000 anti-Chiense militarism
    mostly Tibetans. India gave them active stages to against
    China until 2 years ago changed the policy a little. Those
    130,000 Tibetans where good chess last decade, but those
    will become a huge pain on India's back as time goes on.
    I know people like you with anti-China willingness has large
    market in India today. I know Chinese are too busy on they
    jobs for now. If the situation did not change completely,
    worse for India, not good for China. by the way, zhenYu
    cool down please, get a cup of ice tee will help. Chinese
    style is too aggressive.

    — I don't think China can match India in cricket, tennis, hockey, chess, etc. So don't discard us completely.

    what is cricket? "leaping insect; male makes chirping noises by rubbing the forewings together"?
    I know tennis, Chinese won a gold in 2004 Olympic tennis, so did
    India won a gold in "cricket, tennis, hockey, chess" last year?

    link
    Chinese duo win Olympic tennis gold – Newsgd

    14 Feb 2005, 03:03

  73. Hanyu

    Dear Aruni,

    You said that Dr. Sun Yatsen's republicanism was inspired by Hitler.

    I'm afraid you need some rudimentary reading about German as well as Chinese history. When Sun (1866–1925) was leading Chinese revolution against the Manchu rule, Hitler (1889–1945) was nothing but a schoolboy. Since there are such anachronisms in your knowledge background, it is no wonder that you have made misleading references in your arguments and drawn erroneous conclusions from your project.

    14 Feb 2005, 09:37

  74. Hanyu

    Personally I'm a great fan of Indian/Hindi civilization, a sanskrit learner, and have quite a few friends in India. India's glorious independent movement was equally respected by the Chinese people.

    One problem in China-India relation is India's stealthy ties with the separatist-minded Dalai Lama, who fleed from Tibet after an all-inclusive political Reform which abolished the slavery (serf) system. Unprivileged ordinary Tibetan people was first treated as citizens of a new country.

    Second, with unchecked polulation explosion, India is very likely to become an expansionist regional power in South Asia. China is quite worried about possible Indian invasion from the south because of India's nuclear ambition, government-fostered (or encouraged) hostility towards China, and constant endeavour in strengthening its military power, though India's is not rich, with its GDP about half of China's. Beside good wish, that's also one reason why China hopes to conclude its border talks with India. It doesn't mean that China is unable to stop possible Indian military adventure, but the best strategy to win a war is to stop it before it ever happens. Therefore, China must maintain minimum but adequate deterrence in that direction.

    It would be in both countries interests if we can resolve our border issues. India should eventually realize that its problems does not come from the imagined China threat, but from previous colonial exploitation which inhibited development of modern national industry, corruption which is also a problem in China, and lack of efficiency, thus focusing its attention on people's welfare and economic development.

    India's recent rapid progress in IT sector is very inspiring. I'd like to express my personal congratulations to our Indian neighbours. However, India's progress will be limited by sluggish development in the infrastructure, such as road and utilities. This is what I'd like to draw to your attention.

    14 Feb 2005, 10:24

  75. Dragon Lord

    All the Chinese who is against India here, please shut up !!!

    I'm very angry, the consequence is very serious !!!

    The reality in China is that there's a lot of troubles waiting to be solved, I feel ashamed of you who waste your time here just want to prove that Shanghai is better than Mumbai, what's point if you can prove it? will you get better pay after this? or shut up please, let's say Mumbai is way ahead of Shanghai, yes Mumbai is much advanced than Shanghai! Indian speak better English than Chinese, Indians have better IT technology and enocomy than Chinese, Chinese is way behind, this is the fact. you guys even don't understand indians, so mind your own business please.

    14 Feb 2005, 14:01

  76. Hu ZhenYu

    老大不要生气, 小弟只是在这里练练英语。

    14 Feb 2005, 14:48

  77. New Yorker

    There is no comparison between the two countries, simply because what China is doing is to forge a new form of Chinese civilization and aimed for becoming the king of the world, whreas India is stilll fighting for its survival in the fast modernizing world.

    I am totally supportive of Hu ZhenYu's comments except for the racist part.

    Indians, pray for the 22nd century to be Indian's ! You guys got no chance in this century!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    14 Feb 2005, 16:27

  78. Oneman

    The states surrounding the Mughal Empire were literally puppets of the government in Delhi. Just like the Qing tribute system, all regions in the vicinity of the empire had to pay tributes to the Mughal court. Selection of rulers was highly influenced by the imperial government too, and the Mughals often had provincial consuls in these lands.

    Hu Zhen Yu

    I totally agree with you. Tibet is a part of China in the practical sense of the word. It does not make it legitimate, but its reality. It is as real as Arunachal Pradesh being part of India, or Kashmir. You want to go there- you need Indian visa. The difference is- they are legitimate consenting parts of India.

    Iron Farmer

    Where you stand decides what you see

    India is a welcoming host to His Holyness the Dalai Lama and has sympathies to the ancient Buddhism of Tibet, which originally came from India. If you’re talking about famenting separatism, then don’t. Ever heard of banana republics named Pakistan and Bangladesh? They live on Chinese doles- so do a lot of Indian separatists.

    Hanyu

    I did not mention Sun Yat Sen specifically. But Chinese Republicans were definitely inspired first by Mussolini, and after 1933 by Adolf Hitler. If you read some of the first hand material from the time, there are clear mentions of fascination towards the European fascists.

    I agree India’s population problem is massive, but we don’t allow our people to illegally migrate and settle into other countries (like China does with its border with Russia). India is a net intaker of foreigners.

    Dragon Lord

    If you’re being sarcastic, then let me tell you that my whole point is not debasing China. China is way ahead of India in most economic fields. All I am saying is that, ‘we are catching up’.

    New Yorker

    You are making sweeping assumptions. The century is just getting started. As I showed so many times above, China has borrowed equally if not more from the west than India. So, let’s not jump to any conclusions.

    As they say, only time is the best judge.

    14 Feb 2005, 16:51

  79. Hu ZhenYu

    United we Chinese are invincible. 21 century belongs to China. Alone!

    Aruni do you get it? China is a united entity with a common soul. We have a clear common goal, is to make China an Economical super power + military super power + culture super power. When the goal is set, we do not quarrel, do not vote, we just work and move forward.

    India is a true demo-crazy. A punch of useless politician, every day quarrelling in the parliament, cannot even decide the simplest thing.

    14 Feb 2005, 19:31

  80. Huang He

    India's catching up with China is merely a typical Indian Feeling Good Statement. Indian development suffers a lot from such kind of mentality I believe. You guys got to start soul searching then you can find ways of improvement.

    14 Feb 2005, 19:59

  81. New Yorker

    When we Chinese showed open-mindness in adopting and shortly after completely digesting Buddism (originally from India, credit to you guys!), brave-heartedness in fighting US-led coalition forces in the Koreas, open-mindedness in embracing the outside world, you Indians were kicking foreign companies out of your country, cheating your people with a victory over China in the 1962 war, revelling in that Mumbei is 20 years ahead of Shanghai.

    Do you guys ever wanna open up your eyes and see the world outside of India ???

    I am fed up with Indians saying you have a better political system, ie democracy, than China. Have some sense of history ! Everything evolves——meaning changes ! The current democracy may not be working at all in 100 years. If you know China well enough, you will be able to have that feeling that the country is doing something unprecedented—-to creat a new form of civilization. But that is something obviously beyond your guys' imagination.

    Go to China and see for your own eyes !

    14 Feb 2005, 20:19

  82. yuanshan

    Aruni Mukherjee,

    (1)

    Aruni Mukherjee,

    I am a Chinese, and was introduced to this discussion by a friend. It is very interesting to read the messages here. I don't know India enough, however, I have been trying. I also know some Indians around. Here I am going to present some of my opinions and I wish it could enrich this discussion.

    Our two countries shares a lot in common despite very different history and society. The differences rooted in our history and believes, the commonality rooted in similar fate of ours nations when westerns met us one and half centuries ago.

    So, I would say, our differences are more about our "ways", no matter it is the way we live, the way our nations grow, or the way we reconstruct our countries, and the way we perceive western ideas, and etc. However, in the mega economic and political sense, both our countries are aspiring the similar goals, and the road blocks are similar: those who try to block China's growth are also doing the same thing to India.

    We share the same goals, but differ in our approaches.

    There is one important character both of us countries share in common: we are countries that can decide our own destination, not by the westerns. In this regard, I am proud of China, and also I feel happy for India.

    As stated in the beginning of your paper, China and India might become major powers in the future. But, did you ask this question: when China and India are the number one and two, what's going to happen to the rest of the world? What's going to happen to the West?

    Remember, the 20% of the world population consumes 80% of the world resources now. When the future you are talking about is happening, that means a totally different distribution of world resources, totally different world order. It means the end of a world order since 16th century! It won't happen "naturally". I don't know at what point things would run into problems, but I am sure it will, sooner or later.

    In the following text, I'd like to elaborate some of the differences I perceived, and I definitely like to know your inputs. It's a perfect time to get us understand each other more. I didn't prepare for this discussion, so I will just type as I go, and more might come later.

    (to be continued)

    14 Feb 2005, 20:33

  83. yuanshan

    (2)

    1. I observed, and I believe that you did as well, that, on average, Indian intellectuals are more in agreement with "democracy and human rights" than average Chinese intellectuals

    In the following text, I will use "I", but remember, it's quite typical.

    I believed, on average, Chinese people have a more critical eye on these western values.

    We are more concerned about what these "values" have done to the world or the people of a certain country, not simply what is "meant" by those values.

    Say, for example, while India is the largest "democratic" country in the world, I think it is not really so "demo (people)" when almost all of your premiers are from Ghandi families (am I right?). That only tells me your system only have a "demo" clothing, while something else is the true under current of your politics.

    As of Tibet or Xingjiang, I think your stand is funny. The things happening here has nothing to do with human rights. It's about national interest. Just like Dalai Lama, you read his book, he sounds like an angel, talking about human rights. But, did you ever look at his life? Especially the life when he was in Tibet! He is a slave owner! The largest slave owner of Tibet. It's a profane for him to even mention about "human rights", period.

    It's about national interest. Don't be hypocratic, don't be double-standed. No matter what India is claiming, it is doing the same thing, and the only difference is China has done a more successful job.

    In this regards, what India needs to do is not to blame China, but learn from China.

    Did you ever hear us to criticise others on human right problems? Very few.

    In this world, when other countries are talking about China's Tibet and Xingjiang, more than often, human rigths is a hammer, not the goal, it's a tool. It's useless bullshit. Do you think when India talks about Tibet's human rights, it means Indian people are seriously concerned about Tibetan people's life? I don't think so. It's more about Indian people's life, more about Indians interest! You have to be honest on this.

    It would be funny for you guys to worry about Tibet's human rights when you guys have so many serious problems of your own. So, please stop talk about it.

    I also have a question for you:

    Western countries have been selling human rigths for a long time, before that, they were selling "freedom", before that they were selling "freedom of trade", before that they were selling "opium", before that they were selling slaves, etc.

    Did those who were buying them got any better?

    The fact is:

    The countries that were poor a century ago are still poor, the countries that were rich a century ago are still the rich ones. That tells everythings: nothing they are selling will do you good.

    We have a great writer who write about a century ago told us: don't take what they gave you, go and find the right thing to bring back. This is our fundamental attitude toward western sales pitches, we are very skeptical and critical about those.

    We might believe in their ideas but never in their motives!

    (to be continued)

    14 Feb 2005, 20:34

  84. yuanshan

    (3)

    2. Communism and democracy

    You have taken a "black-vs-white" toward Communist and democracy in China, your messages showed me so.

    In fact, China is among the very few developping countries whose average people have a real voice on countries policies. Though we have a lot and a lot of problems to work on and to improve, tough we still face very uncertain future depending on if our nation can overcome some crucial issues.

    As a country who tries come from behind, everything is touogh, anyone who believes in perfect solutions are not an action-taker. We have to compromise, and use problematice solutions. Don't take a white-vs-black analysis.

    Take communist parties as an example.

    The communist party itself is a mixture of all kinds of different social classes, almost a mini world.

    Chinese People's Congress is even so. It's not as powerful as it should be, but it's getting more powerful each year.

    This Congress is composed of people of different social classes, too. It's our law to have representatives of this Congress from different social classes, such as, certain portion shall be industrial workers, certain portion shall be artist, certain portion shall be farmers, certain portion shall be teachers and scientist, and etc. Though this has gotten eroded in recent years, it is still a working system. I recently read a report, it said that certain "experts" are proposing to replace this system with an "expert representative" system which uses people who know the juristical system, since the "congressmen" need to vote more and more on new laws and their knowledge is limited as from those social classes. This proposal was denied by the Congress, instead, legal consultants were suggested to work with the Congressmen when consultation is needed.

    Of course, we don't have "general elections". And also, our government is still too powerful compare to what we want it to be.

    However, we believe we have an imperfect working system. We worry about its future, but the good thing is that it's changing for better.

    Do you still think our country's destination is controlled by a few, not by the people of the country?

    (to be continued)

    14 Feb 2005, 20:35

  85. yuanshan

    (4)

    3. The two side of the coin: strong government and strong democracy

    Aruni, here is my last question for today:

    With a "democratic" system in place, do you really think that India's people decides India's policies? Who are those "people"?

    You need to be honest about it.

    The political system as you see today in China was founded by the fathers of our People's Republic. They didn't found it because they were "dictators", only idoit believe in those propaganda. They established this system based on the lessons they learnt from our history, the history of ancient China and the history of China meeting the West in the recent 100 years.

    We were defeated, just as India was. We both learnt. Our system reflected what they learnt from our past.

    We have been experiemnting with democracy from 1911, long before India had the chance to experiment. We had a lot of problems, internal and external with this 'democratic" system. If you read our history, you will have a better knowledge about what we have been through.

    From our history, I agree with the founders of our Republic that we have made a right choice on the basic potical systemof our nation, though not a perfect one, there is no perfect one. Like an equation, you only have so many solutions, and no of them are perfect. We simply have too many problems at the same time.

    There are always to sides to a coin. In the case of strong government, it can do good things fast, as well as do bad things fast. As to democracy: there are two sides: the freedom to chose, and the choices to chose from.

    A homeless has all the freedom to chose, but sometimes, he has to nothing to hunger to die.

    (It's already a lot, maybe too political this time. Next time, I might spend some time to talk about some culture and character differences I perceive.)

    14 Feb 2005, 20:36

  86. New Comer

    Speaking of the military powers of the two countries. Do you Indian guys have any clue aobut what China has achieved ? Just like one of my fellow Chinese guys said up-stairs, the Chinese culture respect humbleness a lot——which necessarily means the country masters more than it looks like !

    Heard of long-range laser guns that shoots down flying missiles hundreds of miles away ? Got any clue about precision (down to centimters) underwater natigational systems ? know any thing about settllite based nuclear weapons ?

    In an eventual world war in the future, babarian nations will be killed like rats !

    Wake up guys ! It is already a new era we are in now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    15 Feb 2005, 00:25

  87. stone Liu

    Yuanshan,
    well done! thank you for the nice job, you said much we want to say.

    Aruni,
    You alway ask: "who give the right to CCP to …...", I would say, It's the Chinese people give CCP the right to steer the nation. From 1927–1937 and 1945–1949, the CCP and the US-supported KMT has fought for more than 13 years. CCP got the support of most Chinese people, thus won the civil war. you can also say, the Chinese people vote the CCP by a war.and nowadays, we find we had made a right choice, at least as right as possible.

    You Indian choose another system, democracy. In fact, that's not your choice, the British thrusted it in your hands when they withdrew. The British always play this kind of dirty trick, when they withdrew from middle east, they planted Iseral into Arab land, stirred up trouble and fish in trouble water. when they withdrew from India, they seperate it into three countries and let them fight each other. They also leave "democracy" to you and you took it as a treasure, do you really believe the British are so kind to you?

    Look at the countries those took the drug of "democracy" provided by the west: India, Russia, Philipine, Agentina…..., is it enough to reveal something?

    There are no general, universally applicable, forever-right, political system on this earth. But for a certain country in a certain period of time, there is a suitable one. different nation, in different developping stage could reasonably choose different political system. We Chinese choose a system by ourself, and the history up to now proved the system is better than the one British left to you.

    Most Indian take the west rightness for granted. Yes, India has gain her independency in 1947, but up to now, it seems the Indian people's mind are still colonized. They have not yet get out of the shadow of the west.

    15 Feb 2005, 00:54

  88. oneman28

    I am not sure if India did have influence in other countries 700 years ago. But India lost influence in the world, even neighbours for hundreds of years (Ruled by brits).

    China controled Tibet (700 yeras) and Xingjiang (can back date to 2000 years ago) for long history and don't lose the control since Yuan (700 years) in both place.

    Tibet and Xingjiang were not tribute countries. China had a lot of tribute countries in the history, Korean, Japs, Vietnam and many others (no offense to those countries). Vietnam was even a part of China in Han (2000 years) and Ming (600 years ago). We don't think they belongs to CHina.

    Basically you compare China's control in Tibet and Xingjiang with India's influence is a joke.

    15 Feb 2005, 01:21

  89. New Comer

    Democracy is after all mob-governance !!!

    Slavery, drug and genocide are the most important and effective 3 keys to the wealth of the West !!!

    Look at the US of today you will understand this !!!

    Regard the history of the West you will comprehend it !!!

    15 Feb 2005, 01:29

  90. hololll

    Aruni, just want to correct you that "All I am saying is that, ‘we are catching up’'". India is actually lagging behind. Economically, India can not catch up when China is 9+% year over year while india is just ~7% if lucky(for example last year for the sake of good wheather).

    15 Feb 2005, 01:42

  91. oneman28

    As Yuanshan said: CCP is our Chinese choice. After the famous Long March, the red army only had 30000 troups left. But it defeated Kuoming (Nationalism) Party which had 8 million sodiers with much better weapons fron US. CCP could not achieve this with out people's support. It was people who used bullet to select CCP.

    CCP, like any other political parties in the world, has a lot of problems. But It unites Chinese, leads Chinese to fight for and achieve the China's national security, lay out the foundation for the China's future, provide the enough food for such as big country (China produces twice the food India produces with less ariable land)... All of these are what Chinese have dreamed for more than 100 years.

    CCP's ideals are changing to adapt the social development, shifting its emphasis from politicals to economy, from the national security to living improvement. Many chinese still like it. What we chinese don't like most is the corruption. But CCP does better job than Indian gov. Many reports say India's corruption is worse than China.

    Comparing CCP and Indian "demo" gov, CCP does better in economy, military, technology, educaton, life improvement…. almost everything. Let alone that India was in much better position than China in 40s and 50s (China had wars with westerners, warlords, WW2, civil war before PRC and had korean war with UN after founding of PRC). That's why many Chinese believe Indian's demo is a joke. We Chinese don't judge a party or system by names. We just found a system that is suitable for ourselves.

    15 Feb 2005, 01:49

  92. New Comer

    Excellent job, ONEMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I, and I believe a lot of Chinese like me, somehow feel ashamed of comparing China against India, because the two countries are not at the same level. Yet I am a little bit bothered by the persistent shameless ignorance of most of Indian people who have never shown the slightest willingness to turn their eyes to the outside world even for a split of a second.

    Above links should have shown you guys some evidence of what China has achieved so far, and remember and never forget, this is just the beginning of the beginning, and the better has yet to come !

    Keep your eyes wide open and see ! The greatest player of the whole human history is about to show off to the rest of the world !!!!!

    I hereby challenge you Indian guys wildest imagination of what is going to come up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    15 Feb 2005, 02:32

  93. a9b0

    Very interesting debate.

    A very good and useful website about Shanghai, hope it can help your Shanghai trip.
    link

    Waitting for your paper.

    15 Feb 2005, 03:16

  94. Iron Farmer

    ==India is a welcoming host to His Holyness the Dalai Lama and has sympathies to the ancient Buddhism of Tibet, which originally came from India. If you’re talking about famenting separatism, then don’t. Ever heard of banana republics named Pakistan and Bangladesh? They live on Chinese doles- so do a lot of Indian separatists.

    Aruni, you are not intended to confuse yourself? Tibet and Dalai Lama
    is Chinese internal business. India put its dirty hands into China.
    Dont find executes like you have sympathies so fight against China.
    also dont mixed other countries with the evils India did. Since WW-II,
    China continued 12 years bloody fights on its homeland. Nobody
    believes China still have energy on and before 1947 to influence Pakistan.
    You just made another lie as you did many times. The fact is:
    Pakistan achieved independence in 1947, before China completed civil war.
    Then India supported military violence inside China and then in Mar 1959
    Dalai Lama flees from Tibet to India. You claim was not a case any way.

    For the international rules, you must not involved in other countries civil
    war and internal events. India did not follow the rules.

    15 Feb 2005, 03:26

  95. I like Indians

    Indians and Chinese do not fight each other.
    We are in the same boat, catching up the western world.

    15 Feb 2005, 03:29

  96. Iron Farmer

    post #50: China's borders have constantly been changing. It has never been one static Empire. It has been occupied in the past by many foreign powers. The Qing were from Manchuria and considered barbarians by most Chinese, who wanted the return of the Ming.
    post #60: The question is not whether China has occupied Tibet and Xingjiang for decades, but whether the people consented. The answer is no, and therefore the occupation is illegal. Period.
    Tibet was never consenting part of China. The Qing court had 'influence' in Tibet, but it only became part of China through invasion. Same is the case with Turkistan. 700 years or 7,000- where there is no will, there is no legitimacy.
    ——————————-

    China was much more than "Influence" Tibet. Open the history book,
    that almost 1000 ago since Qing Dynasty where China have firm control
    over Tibet. There where history maps in United Nations, I have a
    1991 National Geographic Magazine had map tells the similar story.
    China controlled Tibet since 1900. You guys must remember, Communist
    China became UN member 1st even only in 1972, after Pakistan and India.
    before that, Taiwan represented China in UN backup by US. China
    did not invaded Tibet after 1972, before 1972, actually in 1945,
    United Nations clearly wrote Tibet was part of China.

    Tibet never be a member of UN, it was from 1900 to today only be
    a local government. The top UN powers say so, India government was
    also forced to agree the fact since last year. all members in UN
    agreed. That gave China absolutely legal rights to control it. by LAWS.

    He said Tibet became part of China only by invasion, in 700 years
    or 7,000 years. was there a law to prevent invasion in 7,000 years?
    tell me the history of America and Australia. Which was not by
    invasion? Russia occupied Siberia also by invasion. They are
    all legally own those. But this one. British colonized India,
    was it legal. No way! then how about the boarder they signed by
    a local government and the illegal Brit? big deal…

    Why Aruni south so loud "therefore the occupation is illegal. Period."
    Do I still need to prove this person a liar? What from his mouth
    is completely arbitrary. One thing for sure, cut into other make
    himself fat profit. I show you how. If India can prove Tibet
    is a country stays on its own, then India will take 90,000km^2
    land from China.

    Is that what you want?

    15 Feb 2005, 03:33

  97. Yuanshan

    Aruni,

    You might feel some heat now. Though I don't really like the way some of mu fellow Chinese talking here, I am used to it.

    It's the process of understanding and getting understood.

    So, better not talk about Tibet, since it's not a double standed talk. Just ask what happened to our neighbor country Sikim ( did I spell right?), it disappeared from the map now.

    Let's focus our discussion on more contructive and honest topics.

    15 Feb 2005, 12:31

  98. a9b0

    To Oneman,

    Can you please send me the link about the skyscrapers in China. It was deleted here.
    a9b0@hotmail.com

    Thank you,

    15 Feb 2005, 14:11

  99. Hu Zhen Yu

    All the best to China. I am ready to agree to all that you hope would happen to China, if you reciprocate the same feelings about India. I also agree with you about Indian politicians. But I still think you’re being simplistic. Democracy does not just mean parliamentary business. It also means accountability and transparency- something that is lacking in authoritarian states.

    Huang He

    If India is not catching up, then why would China invite Indian IT/ITes companies to invest in their market? We are also doing well in pharmaceuticals, BPO, textiles, etc. Don’t rule out India- you’d be surprised.

    New Yorker

    I totally agree with you- Indian economic policy has been mismanaged since the 1960s. India was actually richer than China then, but when China liberalised, we imposed further restrictions.

    Yuanshan

    Congratulations on your contribution! I agree with your statements in general, but differ in details. Let me highlight why-

    1.In the last 15 years, none of the Indian prime ministers have been from the Gandhi family. You must understand the contribution of the Gandhi family during the freedom struggle, and that is why people respected them and voted for them.
    2.I hardly care about Tibet or Turkistan. I have some sympathy for the cultural massacre of Buddhism in Tibet, but it is not so profane. My main concern is Chinese claims on Indian territory and Chinese views on Kashmir. As long as China does not change its lecturing or harbouring rogue nations, neither will India attitude towards China. As you said, its all about national security.
    3.With its faults, I believe Indian democracy works in the fundamental sense. For example, if China held general elections freely, the rural people who have been bereft of China’s economic miracle would vote them out. This is precisely what happened in 2004 Indian elections. This is why democracy = demos + kratos, i.e., rule by the people
    4.Sikkim voted to be part of India. Sikkim and Arunachal are consenting parts of India. Did Tibet vote?

    I agree most with your comments about similarity in India and China’s histories and their common aspirations for the future. If only some people around here would see the light.

    New Comer

    Both India and China have massive high-tech defence projects in the pipeline for the long term future. I don’t know the Chinese names for these, but the Indian ones are Durga and Kali-500.

    Lest you forget, Indian Navy has the world’s fastest short distance cruise missile Brahmos (better than N-22 which Russians sold to China). India’s Su-30MKI fares far better than the best plane PLAAF has- Su-30MKK.

    China is ahead in army and nuclear missiles, equal to India in airforce and behind India in the naval department.

    Oneman

    The problem with China is that it always claims what it once remotely believed to have held. If you talk about cultural influence- just visit Ankorvat in Cambodia or recall the Bamiyan Buddha in Afghanistan.

    India and China have had an equally glittering past.

    Holo

    India’s average growth in the 1980s was around 5% while China had around 8%. In the 1990s China averaged 9% while India averaged 7%. Now China is trying to cool its growth rate, while India is trying to boost its.

    Therefore, we are catching up.

    Iron Farmer

    Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others. I’ll leave it at that.

    The important issue, as I have said many times, is about consent. If you cannot comprehend this simple concept, then rid us of your comments please.

    15 Feb 2005, 15:19

  100. Hu ZhenYu

    I am not a racialist person. I just get annoyed by Indian’s way of talking, as if you have a democracy, every thing is right.

    We Chinese do not want western styled democracy; we have our own system based on our own culture. In that sense, China and West are two equally valid civilizations. Is that a wonderful thing? Now we have diversity in culture and politics.

    There is something you never understand, unless you live in China. We have something above the law that governs our society, it is called honour 荣誉. There is no big honour荣誉in Chinese culture, to sacrifice oneself for the nation. Therefore, our formal president Jiang Zeming, gave up its post, when he has all the power in hand. While India parliament is full of criminals, who have been charged in court but still there.

    Our sense of honour荣誉come from our common culture identity. The pride of being ourself. The believe we can achieve every thing. That is the true power source behind all China’s recent and future development.

    Have a careful look at how Chinese athletes compete in Olympics, look at their eyes, its focus, dedication, persistence, you might get a sense of the power of Honour荣誉.

    15 Feb 2005, 15:59

  101. Hu Zhen Yu

    I share your sentiments. But you are making very large and sweeping assumptions. Indian democracy too is catered to India's cultural norms, just like China's communism.

    What is needed is mutual respect and recognition of a shared and common past, and hopefully a common and bright future for both countries.

    15 Feb 2005, 17:10

  102. New Yorker

    Can't agree more on Hu ZhenYu's comments!!!

    I already told you Indian guys that I was fed up with you showing your rootless pride of being a democracy. A democracy in countries like Indian and Bengladesh is a joke at best, and it is meaningless when you have 40% of the population in poverty and illiteracy, when your streets are full of stinky shit, when your people drink dirty water standing on the curbside, and when your entire country is a huge slum !!!

    Political system (e.g., democracy) is just a tool for the sake of people's well-being, and therefore the former is worthless if the latter can not be achieved with the aide of the former, which is the case in India.

    Can you guys name anything that is indigenously Indian and ahead of China other than your reproduction rate ? Don't mention your film industry which is producing tons of movies of you-see-one-you-see-it-all type every year !!!

    If you still want to know more about comparison of the two countries, use GOOGLE and you can find a lot of references. But I can guarantee you will hurt your feelings reading them !

    Don't waste more of your time justifying or finding excuses for what Indian has or has not done. FACTS TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    15 Feb 2005, 17:13

  103. Huang He

    Hey Aruni, what if you can not get the funding from the brits? You just get up your plan of visiting China? If you really want to get something from this China-India comparison, you got to make commitment with finance and time. That means you got to spend your own money, go there, try to learn some chinese and make some chinese friends, rather than just take things for granted and make ignorant assumptions. Tell you this, this is the Chinese way of doing things, back to basic, down to earth. Just blah blah is cheating people, and cheating yourself. period.

    15 Feb 2005, 17:20

  104. New Yorker

    As I responded to Hu above, Indian democracy is very much catered for India's needs, just like Chinese communism is for China.

    Regarding comparison between India and China, I have mentioned above sectors in which China is way ahead and sectors in which India is ahead. Overall, however, the GDP per capita speaks for itself. In real terms, China's figure is around $1,000 while India's is around $600. An important point however is the GINI co-efficient figure- the inequality ratio in China is staggering.

    A factual discrepancy on your part- India's poverty rate was 26% in 2000. Since then, India has clocked some of its best growth rates- current poverty estimates hover around 20%. But a definite figure will only come during the next census.

    Finally, what is 'indegeneous'? If you're talking about paper, gunpowder, printings, etc. then India has given the world the number system, navigation, ancient universities, etc. If you are talking about contemporary issues, then there is very little to choose between the two countries. India and Chinese food is equally popular in the world, for instance. I find it hard to accept your brushing aside of the Hindi film industry. You have the right not to like India's movies- more people disagree with you in the world than agree. The Hindi film industry has the largest audience in the world, surpassing Hollywood. Needless to say, Indian music is also extremely popular here in the UK, especially Punjabi Bhangra.

    15 Feb 2005, 17:21

  105. Huang He

    Lest you forget, I am just a student. I originate from a very humble background in semi urban India. I don't think it is justifiable to spend my family's money on something like this. I will definitely do this project later in my life even if I cannot find funding here.

    Finally, on the record- I have lived with Chinese people in school for 2 years and made many friends and here at university I have many very close Chinese friends. Difference of opinion does not mean enmity.

    15 Feb 2005, 17:23

  106. New Yorker

    By the way, who removed all those links to Chinese cities that were still there yesterday ? And for what reason ?

    Those are not pictures, those are just web links that do not take up a lot of memory space.

    Who did it ? Could you please stand up and tell me why ??? Otherwise you will show your cowardice to all of us.

    15 Feb 2005, 17:29

  107. Huang He

    Then try to learn some chinese. That takes some time but minimum money. You can comprehend China only by learning its language.

    What is your perception of communism? Is it from the western media? Have you ever read Das Kapital? Even part of it?

    15 Feb 2005, 17:39

  108. Huang He

    I have read Marx's Capital and Communist Manifesto. I think he provided a compelling critique of what was wrong with capitalism during the time. His problem was that he left too little of a roadmap as to how the communist economy would be sustainable or even viable. Therefore, people after Marx interpreted him in a wide way. As Marx himself said, "I am not a Marxist". Marx fundamentally misjudges human nature in two ways- that the vanguard of the planning body is perfectly rational and morally upright, and that common people are selfless and societal.

    I have no strong hatred or love for Marx. He is an important figure, that is all.

    New Yorker

    This is my blog, therefore only I have the right to remove things. I removed pictures, racial abuse and copyright material from the page because it is not relevant to this discussion. I want this discussion to be original from us. I hope you understand.

    15 Feb 2005, 17:52

  109. New York

    Aruni,

    Let me point out what is wrong with the fundamentals in your thinking. The way you think:

    A man eats, and with the mouth.
    A pig also eats, and also with the mouth.

    A man walks, with the legs.
    A pig also walks, and also with legs (by the way, 2 more than a man's)

    A man can hear with his ears.
    A pig can also hear with its ears.

    A man can think, using his brain.
    A pig can also think, and also using its brain (can't deny that because it does have a brain).

    …...............
    …...............

    The above comparative study leads to the conclusion that a pig is like a man, it has most (if not all) of the things a man has, and therefore a pig and a man deserve the same living-thing-rights, they should equally respect the other, they both have the right to register to vote (in a democracy of course), and should not be deprived the right to run for the president of a country.

    The above is exactly what your logic is. It is not spoken explicitly but hidden everywhere between the lines of your comments.

    I really enjoy reading your comments here——-because they make me laugh, hahaha

    15 Feb 2005, 18:00

  110. A pig's bran is not comparable to a man's. A pig is not a rational animal. Therefore, it can be expected to act ignorant of other pigs' rights. This applies to all pigs. Therefore, they lose their own rights by default.

    A man would behave like an animal without civil society, i.e., controls on his freedom as equally as every other man. In a democracy, people collectively decide on the extent of these controls. In a dictatorship, one man (or, few men) determine this. Since man without check is irrational, this means arbitrary power projection.

    Quite an abstract concept brought up by you. I chose to ignore the mutilated humour.

    15 Feb 2005, 18:08

  111. New Yorker

    Yeah, right, I have heard some democracies ranking way higher on the corruption scale than a dictatorship, hehe. And you call that "with check" ? is it rational or irrational ?

    In the dictatorship of China, Mao was once kicked out (peasefully though) of the core decision-making body, while in the democracy of India, one of your presidents (oh I forgot his name) was also once removed from power but thru physical destroying.

    What a vivid comparison of dictatorship vs democracy and one/a few men determination vs collective decision-making and without check vs with check !

    15 Feb 2005, 18:20

  112. What I mentioned were standard models, what you mention is extreme scenario. You might have "some" dictatorships ranking higher than "few democracies" on the corruption list, but where is the general picture? Most of the countries at the lower end of the scale have arbitrary governments. The important point is about consent and dissent, and to the extent societies allow it.

    Finally, who claimed Indian democracy was perfect? In fact, far from it. We still have too much socialist baggage.

    15 Feb 2005, 18:27

  113. New Yorker

    Pigs can be very rational in terms of respecting other pigs' rights. I personally have see a bunch of pigs eating together peacefully. And I have also see a crowd of people fighting for food. Therefore pigs do not lose their rights.

    Now get back to mankind. Is there a country on this planet where people from a lower social class is forbidden to marry one in a higher class ? What is the name of that country ? And is that country a DEMOCRACY where everyone has the same rights and people make decisions collectively ?

    15 Feb 2005, 18:29

  114. New Yorker

    Aruni

    Alright, let's talk about the general picture, which is:

    A lot of what you called democracies are applying the standards of the democracy internally only and behaving like a dictator or even worse externally only by which could they maintain their internal "democracy". I believe I do not need to give examples of this to a well educated person like you.

    15 Feb 2005, 18:45

  115. Huang He

    China is definitely more democratic than India although India was entitled the biggest democracy.

    15 Feb 2005, 19:20

  116. Huang He

    Aruni, if india get rid of those socialist baggage and ignore providing social service like free education, food, jobs, freedom of taking jobs for all class and caste, india will get nowhere but worse.

    You mentioned ealier that China does not have to face the problem of uprooted slum-dwellers. Let me tell you this, 95% of those people in Shanghai or other cities who have to relocate are actually looking forward to because they can get compensation that is good enough for them to buy a nice apartment. And the 5% left make big noice simply because they are greedy and want more than reasonable. If the developers or the India goverment can do the same thing. Provide apartment with bathroom and running water to uprooted slum dwellers in every city of India. There will not be a uprooted slum-dwellers problem at all. Instead people will vote for the ruling party because their life have been greatly improved. Democracy and freedom are only for the capitalists to exploit the poor people freely and openly. That is the hypocricy of western democracy. We chinese see that clearly and you guys still embrace it and be a good student of west and get some cheap compliments and feeling good while ignoring the real problem of the country. This is crime, man!

    15 Feb 2005, 19:35

  117. New Yorker

    Aruni

    I have read Marx's Capital and Communist Manifesto. I think he provided a compelling critique of what was wrong with capitalism during the time. His problem was that he left too little of a roadmap as to how the communist economy would be sustainable or even viable.

    Answer: This is where China comes in!!! Nothing is perfect and there is always room for improvement.

    Therefore, people after Marx interpreted him in a wide way. As Marx himself said, "I am not a Marxist". Marx fundamentally misjudges human nature in two ways- that the vanguard of the planning body is perfectly rational and morally upright, and that common people are selfless and societal.

    Answer: Similar assumptions relative to human nature were made for the theory of democracy:

    1) The people want to be and are informed so they know what to choose. This is not always or almost always not true if you look at today's democratic countries where people do not have or do not want to have any clue about what is going on and what is right and wrong. what they really care after all is money, fame and sex.

    2) The governing body does not cheat the people. But some governments of the democratic countries, directed by the rich societies and big corporations, use the media to cheat their own people mercilessly and shamelessly.

    I have no strong hatred or love for Marx. He is an important figure, that is all.

    Answer: Marx or democracy who cares ?! The ultimate goal is to provide well-being to the people. And this is exactly what China is doing and what is beyond your imagination —— to work out a better political system that well serves the ultimate goal.

    15 Feb 2005, 20:26

  118. Hu ZhenYu

    There is something very wrong with Indian nation’s character.

    We Chinese believe, Character decides attitude, attitude decides life. 性格决定态度, 态度决定人生! The way Indian handle things is like living in the clouds, you never touch the ground. You talk, boasting, cheating, just can not do the real thing.

    Do you have a single piece of military equipment is made in India? LCA, Arjun Tank, nothing works, Making a rifle but forget making bullets, this has to be unique in the world.

    Democracy is not Indian culture, castle system is. Equality is not part of India culture either, racism is. Indian is the most class dividing, racialist society. Watch carefully Indian Bollywood movies, all the movie stars are white, while in every day life all the Indians are black. If Indians are really so proud people, why we do not see a black skin Bollywood movie star? Why so many Indian are buying skin whitening products?

    15 Feb 2005, 20:34

  119. Hu ZhenYu

    The unspoken secret, how country becomes rich.

    Let’s make some study first: How country become rich, we exclude those getting rich only by selling oil.

    1) What are the rich countries before World War Two? Are they still rich today? Answer is yes. They are all the white man’s country.
    2) What are the poor countries before World War Two? Are they still poor today? Answer is yes, only with 5 exceptions.
    3) The 5 exceptions are Japan, Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong China. Does any one follows white man’s democracy? The answer is NO.

    So you see, the rich countries are a very stable exclusive club. So far only 5 new members managed to join this exclusive club. And none of them share western value, most even openly define western democracy and value. For example Singapore, today China is very similar to Singapore, but in a much much large scale, so large that it creates a new world order. (They are all yellow, that is also a fact, and they are either are Chinese, or very similar to Chinese.)

    Who followed white man’s democracy but failed miserably in Asia, is Philippine.

    So wake up India! Copy white man’s system accept their value does not make you a super power, does not win you a seat in UNSC.

    1) Fight white man, like China did in Korea war against US does.
    2) Be yourself, say no to west, take your own road does, like Singapore does.
    3) Hard working, no bullshitting does, like Japan does.

    Have his own backbone, own mind, own determination, is what separates man and slave.

    15 Feb 2005, 23:33

  120. Iron Farmer

    the thread is getting too long, if you can cut it in different pages, everyone will be better off.

    16 Feb 2005, 01:15

  121. New Yorker

    Aruni,

    You said you were student in the Uk, what are you majored in ? How long have you been there and what are your opinions on that country and its people ?

    These are just out of my curiosity.

    We have been talking back and forth for a while, know what ? I figure that our ways of thinking and doing are very different, as different as day and night, white and black, due very likely to our different cultures. In this sense, I do not see a lot in common between the two countries, or at least between the two cultures.

    This does not stop us from knowing each other, although it is unlikely for either of us to change our opinions on the other and his culture, his country. If you are really serious about going visit Shanghai, I encourage you to do that, it won't hurt at least. One thing I would like to remind you of is 2000 pounds is probably not enough to cover all expenses for that trip.

    16 Feb 2005, 01:31

  122. Yuanshan

    Aruni,

    Last words on Tibet: let's don't discuss this issue. Tibet is part of China. We will soon have a law in effect: The National Anti-Separatin Law. The land that China has today belongs to all of those who live in China, it shall not be changed by the voting of the people in a region. That's our law.

    The Sino-India relation was great before the 1962 war, we are good partners on a lot of international issues. We have a reason to be partners, actually both then and now. The cause of the war was the disagreement of our two nations on our borders. At the that movement, it was India who was changing the status quo. You were sending troupes to the territories we have disagreement on.

    That's not the right thing to do, since it means war.

    Please don't say China has taken Indian land, because we have a lot people saying the opposite. Let's say that we have a disagreement. The fact was that India and China had never agreed upon a border. The border you used to claim the land was the one made by your British colonnelist, and this border has never been approved by any Chinese central administration.

    So the fact is we need to settle things down, first time in the history, by our own people, Indian and Chinese, not an British colonnelist.

    We never had to do that. It was a border of peace, and border of culture exchanges. We Chinese own a lot to India for a lot of things. A lot of Indian ideas are so deep in our life and in our language, it's one of the major sources of our humanity.

    British colonnelist has drawn a border between Pakistan and India, which was never their before. What do you feel about it?

    So, why it suddenly becomes so lovely a thing when it was to your benefit, while deprites China's?

    Let's shift our paradiagm, and say, we have disagreement on an unsettled issue, instead of saying "you have occupied our land".

    The history of mordern capitalist world was an irresponsible history for countries like us. The powers of the world ignored our interests and opinions and cut and pasted the world at their will. They has left a mess behind them, some on purpose, some simply due to lack of wisdom. They don't care and they don't have to.

    This time it's our own turm to handle our own issues, we need to be wise and responsible.

    I have lots of respect for Indians, and have lots of critics as well. To certain extent, the modern history of China has been a little more complex than that of India's. We were conquered, more than a few times, by a lot of different countries. We cut a lot of land, accepted a lot of unfair treaties, and paid a lot of money of loss of wars, many times. Our country was broken. We tried a lot of different ways to revive, we failed a lot of different ways, too. We saw a lot of 'ism", tried a lot of them. We have a line of poet telling it all: If the God had emotion, he would have weathered after seen all what we have been thru.

    Fortunately, our forerunners didn't do things in vain: they left us a pair of critical eyes.

    I have faith in our two countries simply because we decide our own destinations, as I said in my first message. History is not measured use a ruler of "100 year". It's measured using 1,000 years, 10,000 years, and 100,000 yaers! I have faith.

    But, be critical!

    This is not only a word to you, but also to my Chinese fellows, and to myself.

    One of the critical thinking you need to have is that:

    If Communism did any harm to its own people, it did only good things to India. India should have apprecaited the communism in this world. It's the communism that subsatntially changed the world order into one that is more favorable to the developping countries. A world like this had never happened before Soviet Union was there, it used to be a true a very different world, in which your colonnelist made the border for India and China.

    Now, the world runs the risk of turn backwards. Be alert.

    Good wishes to India and your people.

    16 Feb 2005, 03:41

  123. Iron Farmer

    Re: banana

    That was a surprise to see Indian did not blame British on spited Pakistan and Bangladesh out from India but dispute with China. The 1962 war was a strategy mistake made by India which lost a great opportunity to become a super power. India learned Great ambitious from Britain but not their skills and abilities. After independent, India should exchange support from China to re-united India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. When US was too busy on N.Korea and Vietnam, good friendship with Soviet, did not need a lot of effort with hit the goal. IF situation was good, get control on middle East. Since 1940s to 1960s were war period. India had a good chance to win. However, India saw China stood up from 12-year long battle field, and fighting with 2 giants(US combined UK) in N.Korea. Big mistake, India thought a chance come, it did not hastate to punch a knife on the back of China and put a fire on their back year. I meant the Tibet trouble. In return, China built 3 “Great Walls” around India. Pakistan, Burma and the north. The border problem will be a bomb, it may explode later, but not in this decade.
    We had enough on political debate.

    #74 by Hanyu: It would be in both countries interests if we can resolve our border issues. India should eventually realize that its problems does not come from the imagined China threat, but from previous colonial exploitation which inhibited development of modern national industry,

    Chinese factor and Pakistan does use up some resource. But those does not comparable to what China spend on against Taiwan and Japan/US. The problem is neither from British. British took some money away but left huge assets for India. A working system, a world class education hardware and software(not computer, but brains), great infrastructure(at least great level in 1940s age). Compare to KMT, it had keys to every finance system and reserve center. Every oz of gold, every penny in China where vacuumed to Taiwan. China spent over 5 decade rebuild still short in highway(not expressway) mileage and railroad mileage compare to India by year 2000(CIA data).
    China did not blame on KMT, a good craftsman is to make start-of-art product from none, not only know to repaint old furniture.

    By the way, ZhenYu please change your tone, there are more to think and to write then those old thing again and again.

    16 Feb 2005, 03:47

  124. Sanjay

    Hey, Iron Farmer. Don't educate your bother ZhenYu here. You're not smarter than he is. What tone he's using is non of your business. You must be practising English here but show that you're naive.

    16 Feb 2005, 05:35

  125. New Yorker

    There is no rule in India which prevents lower caste people to marry someone from an upper caste background. There is no rule stopping inter-religious marriage either. If there is something, then that is social customs and prejudices. It has nothing to do with the political system.

    No democracy is perfect, as you said. The key issue however is the consensus about a political system.

    I am still in the UK, and I am an undergraduate student. I have been here for 4 years. I think generally the British are a lot more tolerant towards foreigners than some of their European neighbours like Spain, Russia, etc. but under the surface there still exists a strand of racism and superiority complex here. I went to boarding school in this country, and from what I observed about Chinese students is where I started forming opinions about China and its people. None of what I say what might seem racist is so, it is purely what I have seen.

    Huang He

    I doubt anybody will accept that China is more ‘free’ than India politically with its restrictions on expression, association, movement, etc.

    By socialist baggage, I meant primarily economic. Indian government is still too involved in the economy, in a way the CCP has gradually ceased to do ever since Deng Xiaoping.

    Hu Zhen Yu

    The Arjun tank is not accepted by the army because it is too expensive. 125 are being ordered though. The LCA is very much in the process of being inducted. Some other Indian military projects include the Delhi class destroyers, Brahmos cruise missile, ATV nuclear submarine project, ADS aircraft carrier, Shivalik class frigates, Bangalore class destroyers, etc. A lot more projects are joint ventures, like the Su-30MKI.

    Caste system as it stands is not part of Indian culture. It has been distorted, in the same way as Islam has been, or some forms of Confucian culture.

    Your claim that ‘Indians are black’ shows your gross ignorance. People in the north are generally fair skinned, those in the east and south are darker skinned. The Hindi speaking population generally lives in the north, and Bollywood is the name for the Hindi film industry. The southern film industries including Tamil have indegeneous actors. Of course you forget major Hindi movie stars like Ajay Devgan, Rani Mukherjee, Bipasha Basu, Kajol, etc. who are dark skinned.

    You’re saying China is ‘rich’. This is laughable- with a GDP per capita of $1,000 and one of the highest inequality rates in the planet, I don’t think even CCP would make that claim.

    Iron Farmer

    I don’t have the right to split the thread into pages. Sorry about that.

    Yuanshan

    Indians generally don’t agree with partition. There was a feeling that the Indian sub-continent would once again unite as India. However, American and Chinese doles to rogue lands like Pakistan and Bangladesh have made sure that this does not happen. One day I believe that India will be re-united, from an economic base later developing into political proximity.

    Tibet is part of China, Arunachal is part of India. If the latter is not true, then neither is the former. Period.

    16 Feb 2005, 14:19

  126. New Yorker

    Aruni,

    A few things I do not agree with you.

    1) While there might not be any LAWS preventing cross-marriage among different castes, it is the TRUTH that it is UNLIKELY (IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE) for a lower caste person to marry one up higher. THIS IS BY ALL MEANS PARY OF YOUR INDIAN CULTURE!!! However, your democratic political system is not part of your culture because it was invented not by Indian people and was introduced to Indian from somewhere else. Admitting that is not a shame. As both you and I agree upon, nothing is perfect and everything evolves. I can not deny the possibility that one day this notorous caste system will be removed from your social life. But like it or not, this caste system is existing and being practiced by the Indian people as of today.

    2) Democracy is about consensus, is this what your point is ? Unfortunately democracy is not that simple. When you have a third of your population that is illiterate, how do you dare to say they consent to it ? This political system was just imposed onto them, who are as of today still struggling to get fed and lodged. Democracy is not unconditional, it needs certain things as the basis, in which including basis human rights (i.e., food, clothes, lodging), education, and other feedoms such as freedom of speech, movement, association, etc. India still has a long way to go to provide those basis human rights to its people before it claims democratic and is proud of it, otherwise it is just a joke.

    3) Thanks for the info about Britain and Britishes. I do not hasitate to show my disgust towards the country, which was the first drug trafficing government in the human history, ever.

    Hu ZhenYu

    You have a point there. But I would rather say the current Chinese culture is better than the current Indian culture. Biologically we are the same, at least to the best knowledge of modern science and technology.

    16 Feb 2005, 16:00

  127. New Yorker

    Aruni,

    Out of my curiosity I have one more question for you: Do Indian people hate Britain ? They rid Indian of the opportunities to be modernized through brain-washing and brutal suppression, and divided India to different countries.

    I personally experienced a few overseas Indians and I got the feeling that Indian people got more of an attitude towards Chinese than British, who have done more bad things to India than any other countries combined.

    16 Feb 2005, 16:15

  128. New Yorker

    Let me try to probe into the deepest level of the Indian mentality towards the outside world. My analysis or comments all are extrapolation from first-hand personal experience in dealing with Indian people outside of India. I said extrapolation because so far nobody has the ability or instrument to physically see that deep in people's minds.

    Indians show two mentalities in general.

    On one hand, they hate foreign countries or foreign people. India has a very large overseas Indian community, there are a lot of Indian people living, working and traveling outside of India. They have seen so many foreign countries that are much more advanced than India in terms of economy, science and technology, society, etc. All these have generated a strong self-abasement or inferiority complex, which naturally and consequently turn to strong hatred for anybody and anything that is not Indian. Chinese in the same situation would have transformed this kind of hatred into the motivation to advance our homeland. However, Indians remain intoxicated in the hatred that psychologically serves as a relief.

    On the other hand, many of Indians are very proud of being Indians. This pride can be attributed to, among many things, India's long history, its music, food, temples and monuments, and particulary and above all, their English-speaking. Why this you may ask. Let me tell you, this is the only thing that supports their self-esteem when facing foreigners. With speaking English, the world language of commerce and science (for the time being though), they feel closer to or being part of the dominant civilization at this time on this planet, and all the other peoples such as Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese, Indonesians and so on they all are inferior because they can not speak the language near-natively (let's for now forget about the strong accent of Indian English). This feeling of cheap superiority to other peoples is enhanced on a daily basis in the international arena of trade fairs, scientific conferences etc. because Indians can freely communicate with other English speakers while the other inferior people got more or less difficulties in doing the same thing. This in turn confirms to the Indians that their feeling of superiority is upright. I personally met a couple of Indians on board a plane in China and obvious to me was that they could not wait to show me their English speaking abilities with a look of glittering pride on their faces. Know what my Indian friends, I speak English too but I am not proud of it, it is just one of my many skills and has notthing to do with pride. Don't forget this is not your native language and originally it was not your free will to choose to speak the language but the language was superimposed upon you by your English masters. Do you really take that as a pride ?

    16 Feb 2005, 18:05

  129. Chinese

    Why there are so many women suicided because of dowry in India?

    16 Feb 2005, 19:11

  130. Chinese

    Why was Arundhati Roy put in jail?

    16 Feb 2005, 19:43

  131. Huang He

    link

    I think India is a rich country. look at the apartment listed above. It costs $1111 per month.

    China's nominal per capita GDP is aroung $1300 but average Chinese people lives much better than indian people. Most of the peasants have a piece of land they can grow their food, have their house built on that. Most working people in the city got an apartment with minimum payments couple of years ago so they do not have to pay rent or mortgage. When measuring citizen well being, you better not just using the $ numbers given by western countries.

    China does have certain kind of censorship on news media but the media still have a lot of reflection of people's voice otherwise they will lose their market share. What is the point of mass media freedom if the people in rural areas or city slums can not read or can not afford newspapers or do not read at all because they have to fight on their very existence? I think socialist system works pretty well in China but it is far from perfection. China is catching up to perfect the political system very rapidly these years and in a few years the world will see a prosperous and harmonious society different from the west. Do not boast on your western democracy it is just a JOKE.

    16 Feb 2005, 20:30

  132. New Yorker

    To be frank, I do not even want to compare any Chinese city against Mumbai, which is just a large-scale slum. I am so sorry that my compatriots can not show some other aspects of how we Chinese people live simply because those are not easy to depict. I will just leave that for you Indian guys to discover when you are there.

    Talking about catching up China ? That is just day dreaming. India in general is at least 50 years behind China if not more. And do not forget, China is picking up speed !!!

    17 Feb 2005, 00:07

  133. Yuanshan

    So, you believe: there will be a day that Indian sub-continent will be united,; and there will be a day that today's China will be devided —- Tibet will be separated from China.

    Interesting perspective, and an ugly one!

    Fortunately, your country's policy seems to have be mapped out by people who know much better than you.

    That's my last message here.

    17 Feb 2005, 00:52

  134. Iron Farmer

    post #3: So far only two kinds of people has build up advanced nation in country scale, the (West) and the (*Far East*).
    —————————-

    At this point, I am not interested in who is better and how much is ahead. Rather I want to hear some new opinions from others. The west media did not have insight or intend to cover the true. Not an article tells how and why the Far East does better than the rest of Asia (get rich by selling raw oil and gas is not in my discussion). And honestly how India can catch up? if you don’t think so, explain.

    The classical example of economic success I will pick Japan, sKorea and China. Those have completely different political system, population and land size. Those have built their nations in advanced level in country scale (strong in comprehensive strength).
    I.Farmer could not understand the logic of west media. I view those in my own points. Found a few to share, first is they have very similar culture(not color), they did not have a lot of freedom at the beginning. They did not have efficient financial system rating by the West as India has. However each of them can use limited resource to rocket GDP to sky and laydown advance industry frame work in short time.

    .

    Top article: Since its liberalisation in 1978, China has grown in excess of 8% per annum. India, which opened up much later in 1991, has grown at nearly 7% per annum. By 2025, China and India are predicted to be the second and third largest economies of the world respectively.
    ——————-

    20 years is already too distance to predict. I cannt tell anything in 50 years. However, your statement has calculation error in numbers. In order to take over Japan in 2025, India needs an average growth of 11% in pure math.

    GDP in 2025, if the trend and anything else is as expected,
    US has $11.5T x (1.03^20) = $21 trillion
    China has $1.6 x (1.08^20) = $7.5 trillion
    Japan has $4.5T x (1.01^20) = $5.5 trillion
    German has $3T x (1.02^20) = $4.5 trillion
    France,,,
    Britain,,,
    India has $800B x (1.07^20) = $3.1 trillion

    17 Feb 2005, 03:13

  135. Guys

    I have deleted some some posts with racist attack and some others with just news/pictures in them. This is not a forum, it is my personal blog. If you want to debate with a larger range of Indians, then please visit my forum at www.protonriver.com/forums where you can post pictures as much as you want.

    I request contributors here to actually take part in the debate, and do that solely.

    New Yorker

    Yes, caste system is indeed prevalent in Indian society today. But you cannot claim that it is part of Indian culture as such, just like addiction to opium in the 19th century was more due to the British opium trade rather than any Chinese fascination for opium. Caste system has been exploited by the British a lot to divide Indian people. The situation has improved, so much so that lower caste people have been Prime Minister and President in India, but overall much more needs to be done.

    Generally Indians of the current generation do not hate Britain, just like we don’t hate China for 1962 because we were not born in that time. The older generations hold a grudge against Britain, especially because of partition. But as UK and India have been on very good terms ever since independence, the wounds have somewhat healed for many people. I would also suggest you hold a little less prejudice for the British people, as racially you would be aggressively abused and passively defended on the European continent, but not thus in Britian. The British have a genuine desire to move towards a multi-cultural society.

    Overseas Indians are one of the most successful diasporas on this planet. For example, they are the richest ethnic group in the US and have almost single handedly built the Silicon Valley. They have not been allowed to help their motherland to the extent the overseas Chinese have, because of mis-directed economic policy.

    Sadly I have to agree with your argument about some Indians thinking speaking English is a social promotion. But then again, I would equate it with any other form of consumerism. It should just be a money making skill, that is all.

    I find it laughable that you compare Mumbai to a large slum. That means you would call New York city the same. The only reason that Mumbai is not as pretty as Shanghai is because we cannot simply uproot beggars and slum dwellers and built skyscrapers in their place. We have to go through proper bureaucratic means and respect people’s private property. Also, if a skyscraper does not justify government spending, local council will not approve it. Even so, Mumbai has some very picturesque areas. More importantly, it is a thriving business city, just like Shanghai.

    Chinese

    Suicides related to dowry in India are no worse than suicides by poor rural farmers in China. Both are due to societal evils, albeit different kind.

    Arundhati Roy was not put in jail for expressing her opinions- she was put in jail for breaking the civil law. She is free to defend herself, just like any other citizen.

    Iron Farmer

    Impressive analysis!

    However, one glitch- you are under-estimating India’s growth rate way too much. Reports by Goldman Sachs, Asian Development Bank and other organisations predict China’s growth to slow down around 2015 and India’s to continue accelerating before overtaking China’s growth rate. Realistically, most predictions put US and China as 1,2 in 2025 with 3 and 4 being Japan and India (order unsure). By 2050, China and India are expected to be the largest two economies on the planet.

    17 Feb 2005, 17:40

  136. Huang He

    People commit suicide because of poor living happens everywhere, even in rich countries like United States. I never heard people go suicides because of dowry except in India, does that mean something?

    "The only reason that Mumbai is not as pretty as Shanghai is because we cannot simply uproot beggars and slum dwellers and built skyscrapers in their place."
    I talked about this before. This is a good alibi sounds perfect for the Indian and people from the west but it is NOT a valid reason. China has to face the uprooted slum(could be decent place by indian standard though) problem as well. Every country has to face such kind of problem during the development process. But China solve the problem pretty well by giving out money which improves their living conditions a lot. You got to question your own statements and be critical about your own thoughts rather than blah blah old stuffs to keep yourself feeling good. "Being humble, you make progress, Being proud, you lag behind" Every Chinese on the planet know this.

    Sillicon Valley is not built by Indian. There are Indians working here as well as people from China, Europe. Who told you Indian people built silicon valley almost single handedly? Indian are one of the richest ethnic group in US but not the richest. Chinese median household income is higher than Indian in silicon valley (I am living in Silicon Valley BTW).

    17 Feb 2005, 19:45

  137. Huang He

    Please do not boast your Indian democracy. Check out the link from the country you live.

    link

    17 Feb 2005, 21:00

  138. Mauritius Yang

    Aruni:
    Being a Chinese living in Mauritius (thank you for having mentioned this tiny country somewhere above), I would say that you are the most welcome to visit China. Somewhere this year or next year, I plan to visit India too, Mumbai/Taj Mahal/Goa etc….

    Hu Zhen Yu:
    I somewhat feel ashamed with your heavily racist attitudes towards our Indian friends. Every race on this planet has own merits, black people strangely have exceptional sense of rhythm, generally have stronger muscles than we Chinese have… and I personally find Indian are generally much better than us in dancing. I find it an unacceptable, impolite and uncultured attitude to show off one's advantage towards a guess. Shanghai looks brighter and nicer than Mumbai, true, then so what? Is it a reason to downgrade our neighbours across Himalaya? Don't you just looked like those Japanese when they tried to waive goodbye Asia and good morning Europe many years ago? Don’t we hate this attitude? And now we are doing this against our, some believe, less well off neighbours? Aruni only wanted to visit our country, he is from another country of very different background, his vision on things differs from us is very normal. We are here to share our points of views, in gentlemanly manners.

    From top of the thread till bottom, Aruni’s web manner is perfect, not a single bad word, only different perceptions ready to share with us for discussion. Whereas quite some of those posts with Chinese name authors are really aggressive with least manner and cultivation, language style sounds very red-guardish, very street language sounded.

    It is worrisome to note that, recently in Internet forums, aggressive attitudes powered by recent success in Chinese economy has flamed over blown extremist nationalistic mentality among some Chinese (not exactly here, but I feel some shadows of it here too). They want to fight Russian northward, USA in the south over Taiwan straight, Japan in the east and India on the west front, and still come out victor on all fronts. Purely grotesque fantasy and illusion! We never lack brave people on this planet, “never under estimate others” so said Chinese proverb dated thousand years ago. It seems to me that recent economic success has already burn blind quite some of Chinese youth which renders them looked, sometimes, lunatic. Aggressive attitudes definitely won’t help in getting constructive ideas from peers. This makes me recall that Mongol king (Sheng Ge Ling Xing) in late Qing dynasty who braved British diplomat (backed by firearm soldiers in battleships just off the port of Tian Jing) with exclamation that he would conquer Europa with 8,000 horsemen. This is from movie . Sheng Ge Ling Xing was definitely brave, but hopelessly arrogant, ignorant and stupid. He didn’t even try to know what made British emissary so arrogant and dare-some, and what was behind him. And today I have seen still lots of Sheng Ge Ling Xing here, braving on things they have just had a glimpse over other side of Himalaya.

    Most provocative of all is Hu Zhen Yu, who dared to openly express racial discrimination yet denying being a racist later on. May be double blinding nature of web discussion provided him gut to reveal the ugliest of him. Totally agree with Aruni’s “there is none so blind as those who do not wish to see”, Hu Zhen Yu, and some other similars, have definitely chosen not to see. I would further consider racists of lower intellectual power and defective: intelligent men always care to improve own shortcomings with strength they can find on others, only defective and incapable people need racial shield to hide their defective spare parts from shame of exposure.

    17 Feb 2005, 21:54

  139. Mauritius Yang

    On conflicting issues between China and India:
    War in any sense is a tragedy, nobody can get out from war unharmed, not even victorious parties. Nehru, as a politician, wanted to become the leader of the third world, which is a perfectly noble pursue for any politician in the world. But he made strategic mistake for wanting to down Chinese who, at that time, looked in bad shape materially. He didn’t correctly estimate the Chinese troop moral. This mistake costed him dearly, as dearly as Mao’s mistakes on Chinese population policy and economic issues, or Hideki Tojo’s mistake with even more disastrous consequences to wake up fighting spirit of American in Pearl Harbour. Engineers make mistakes, managers make mistakes, and so will politicians.

    In wars nobody can come out totally victorious. Japanese killed a lot, but have permanently lost opportunity and moral capital to become leading country of Asia, ever ask yourself why Japanese try so hard to forget themselves and made others to forget? In Korean War, we lost more lives, but gained more terrain and over all moral, whereas American lost war but they gain in finally figured out that CCP is not KMT, and they would have to deal with new China with much more care.

    Indians love India and Chinese love China, we are not enemy, 1962’s confrontation is a mere friction on disagreement on a borderline drawn by British and a local government of China. Agree with Aruni that borderlines of all countries in the world are not static, they change over time, though many many years would be needed to notice such change. I personally will not feel uncomfortable that some disputed territory be ceded to India if our diplomats can be sure that, on so doing, India will take this gesture from China deep in their heart and be a friend of China ever after. Some hundreds or thousands of kilometer square territory for a peaceful west border and peaceful relationship with a neighbour full of potential definitely worth to seal the deal: we then can concentrate on more urgent issues of development instead of worrying for sesame seeds while forgetting there are watermelons to pickup.

    Chinese say China is the greatest country in the world, Indians say the same for India, fine for both and good for both, provided we two do not compare which “greatest” is greater than the other “greatest”. Everybody enjoys own greatness, and peace is established in this way for both.

    17 Feb 2005, 21:57

  140. Mauritius Yang

    India definitely will need to become a great nation. In order to achieve this status, she needs to “conquer” an established great nation. This nation to be “conquered” cannot be China, as China will be neighbour of India for ever, you got us this time, we will get you next time, 100 years of conflict is not too long for such conflict (look at damaging British-French 100 year war). Only nation India have to “conquer” in order to gain access greatness is Britain. Britain has been above India militarily, politically …. But not that much culturally. Only when British find India a better country to be then India can sweep away that long shadow of Britain over India. Indian people speak good English and understand how British think and function, still good chance to figure out how to beat Britain on their own ground.

    The fact that Indian students are better than English student in Victorian English is a significant sign of historical shift over between India and Britain.

    To All Chinese in this forum:
    India is not our enemy, this country gave us Bouda who represent at least 1/3 of Chinese soul, we should not and cannot hate them or dispise them, their less materialist way of living may well be the way of living suitable in future as materialism and consumerism may not work in future world. We now venerate people like Bill Gates, and long to become country like USA, when there is no more sufficient natural resources to maintain consumeristic way of life, people like those gurus walking naked in Indian countryside may well become the most venerated figures in the world which struggle for survival.

    17 Feb 2005, 21:59

  141. Hu ZhenYu

    Yang you so naïve.

    Principle of evolution, survivor of the fittest. The god blesses nothing but the strong. Every success nation is racist, only the ileague immigrants truly believe the world is one big family.

    We Chinese a little rough, but we speak the truth. Indians talk nicely, but it is just talk that is it. No truth, no action.

    17 Feb 2005, 22:38

  142. Iron Farmer

    Good found, brother Huang.

    The link is very helpful to understand the story behind the screen. I understand that Aruni’s words better now, “Where you stand decides what you see”. That is right. The article from UK prints each Shanghai resident has currently 6% more income than Bombay. Since the housing is cheaper thus the price index should be lower than comparable in Bombay. He has reasons to believe over all living standard for every people in ShangHai is about 10% high than who lives in Bombay. Chinese guys, there is no need to argue differences in both cities. More funs ahead.

    A dentist works on a ranch house making $150,000/year in our area, MCI lost $3.8 billion last year in shining office buildings.

    ————————————————————-
    February 17, 2005
    Bombay sees itself as the new Shanghai
    timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1–3-1487253,00.html

    BOMBAY
    Population: 16.5 million
    Living in slums: 60 per cent
    Average annual income: £732 (60,000 rupees)
    Property value: £459/square metre

    SHANGHAI
    Population: 12.8 million
    Living in slums: none
    Average annual income: £776
    Property value: £268.40 per square metre

    18 Feb 2005, 03:18

  143. New Yorker

    Let all of us take a look at how slum dwellers are treated in democratic India, I just can not help laughing….................................hahaha

    Cheating on an election promise

    And shouldn’t Section 415 of the IPC apply in this case as well?

    DILIP D’SOUZA

    Posted online: Friday, February 18, 2005 at 0000 hours IST

    In the Indian Penal Code, Section 415 says: “Whoever, by deceiving any person …intentionally induces the person so deceived to do…anything which he would not do…if he were not so deceived, and which act…causes or is likely to cause damage or harm to that person in body, mind…or property, is said to ‘cheat’.”

    Last October, the Congress-NCP Government in Maharashtra came to power at least partly on the back of an election promise to “legalise all slums in Mumbai that have come up till year 2000”. This was in clear contrast to the Shiv Sena-BJP election promise, which was that they would not extend the cut-off past the established date of 1995; meaning that all slums that came up after that date would face destruction.

    That is, by subscribing to this promise, the various Congress and NCP MLAs who won this election made this commitment to voters: that all slums built before 2000 would be allowed to stay intact. By all accounts, this assurance helped them win the election. Many slum-dwellers chose to vote for the Congress-NCP rather than the Sena-BJP alliance because of this one promise.

    Once elected and in office, the MLAs threw away that commitment. CM Vilasrao Deshmukh is on record defending his government’s recent actions with this plaintive statement: “Every chief minister likes to be remembered. I’m no exception.” He has decided that the best way to be remembered is by an effort to transform this city into Shanghai and the best way to do that is by demolishing slums. So the government he heads has embarked on the largest spate of demolitions this city has ever seen. And in doing that, they maintain that the earlier cut-off date, 1995, will apply.

    And as Mumbai goes through its demolition-derby, I stumbled on the sections of the IPC quoted here. Now most people have strong views, one way or another, on this action. But let’s leave those views aside and conduct a thought experiment. Let’s suppose a slum dweller, call him Satyajit, who moved into his home after 1995, but before 2000; and voted in last October’s Maharashtra’s election; and would have ordinarily voted for the Shiv Sena- BJP alliance; but was afraid that their government would destroy his home; and so voted for the Congress-NCP because of their promise to legalise that home; and has now watched his slum home disappear under a bulldozer’s maw.

    Leave aside your views on slum demolitions for a while. Consider Satyajit, on the one hand, and Chief Minister Vilasrao Deshmukh, on the other. Clearly, Deshmukh and his election promise “intentionally induced” Satyajit to do something which he “would not” have done without that promise: voted for the Congress-NCP. Just as clearly, this induced “act” of Satyajit’s has “caused damage”, at least to his “property”, let alone his body or mind.

    Question: are Deshmukh and his government colleagues therefore “cheats” by the definition of Section 415?

    18 Feb 2005, 03:46

  144. A Chinese

    Hi Yang:

    What you said in your comments:"I personally will not feel uncomfortable that some disputed territory be ceded to India if our diplomats can be sure that, on so doing, India will take this gesture from China deep in their heart and be a friend of China ever after…" is completely bullshit! I guess your brain contains some water inside or you don't know the history and have no idea what you are taking about. The reason why the 1962 war occurred was completely due to India's aggressive intention to build Military posts across the McMahon line deeply inside Chinese territory and the war was ended up with Chinese's undeniable crushing militarily victory, however after ceasefire, china had already sacrificed a lot of its own national interest by withdrawing back and hold the line 20 km behind McMahon line, giving up a very large piece of land which China had already taken back during the war and which actually should belong to China originally, and China even hand back the war equipments left by the defeated Indians army in as good condition as possible. What china did to India is to follow the old Chinese saying "yi de bao yuan", which means I still treat you kindly and generously even though you had done things so badly and evilly to me in the past. But what did the India do after the ceasefire? India didn't appreciate china's kindness and generosity at all! and also quickly moved back into NEFA by ignoring the Chinese demand that Indian troops be withdrawn twenty kilometers from the line of actual control in the western and middle sectors.In the coming years, more Indians are moving into these controversial lands which should undeniably belong to China.
    Please take a look at mid east, did the exchange of land really settle down with the peace? Also take a look at the World history, the bloody fighting for even one inch of land could last for centuries. What would happen if India were the victor of the 1962 war? Think about it. Keep in mind, when the national interest comes in, everything else will become meaningless. Land is the No.1 National interest, losing even one inch is absolutely a crime to all Chinese people. Be a smart Chinese.

    A Chinese

    18 Feb 2005, 03:54

  145. New Yorker

    My friend Aruni,

    How would you explain your country's chief minister saying "......the best way to be remembered is to transform Mumbai into Shanghai and the best way to do that is by demolishing slums…..................." ???

    In the democratic India, your democratic government first cheated your people (or specifically those slum dwellers) for their votes, and then after being elected, took their words back and started the biggest ever slum demolishing drive in the city of Mumbai in their desperate hope to transform that city into Shanghai.

    Is this the kind of India style democracy that so many Indians are proud of and hasten to show off in front of us Chinese ???

    Is this the city of thriving business and picturesque areas where your own country's media said 60% of its population is actually slum dwellers that are at this very moment facing the fate of no home superimposed upon them by their own goverment ???

    All this info comes from media in India, I have just become one of the frequent visiters to those website, hehe. I will be a very objective reporter from now on, no need to worry.

    18 Feb 2005, 04:07

  146. New Yorker

    Mauritius Yang,

    I hate to say this to an allegedly Chinese but I am saying this to you now. GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE AND MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS !!!!! I do not need you to tell me what is right what is wrong, but I am sure if every Chinese is like you, a guy with no balls, no fighting spirit, China's situation today would have been 1000 time worse than India !!!

    I did not want to use the H word and the F word, but I do think you deserve it !!!! I have not used that to Aruni or any Indian although I have experienced quite a bit of arrogancy and hostility from them out of no apparent reason I could conceive. If Indians take us Chinese (I here refuse to include you in this group I am proud of) as enemies, that is up to them. I have a lot of respect for thier long history and disgust toward their shameless ignorance and baseless pride.

    Let me say the F word to you one more time, get the fuck out of here, would you ???

    18 Feb 2005, 04:32

  147. Huang He

    It is a fact that Indians are the richest ethnic group in the US- it was in the news recently. Indians have overtaken the Chinese, and Indian students to the US have overtaken their Chinese counterparts. Indian software engineers form the backbone of the US Silicon Valley- their contribution can only be perhaps matched by the Japanese.

    Mauritus Yang

    Thanks for your kind words. I am glad you agree that discussion should take place in a calm atmosphere. I agree with you on the behavioural pattern of some users here. I am a patriot too, but I do not abuse others to fan my ego. This is a very dangerous trait I have noticed among some users here. Taking criticism in its stride is an important virtue, something which both Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan lacked.

    Nehru did not hate China- he simply was too gullible and believed the talk of ‘Hindi chini bhai bhai’ as uttered by Mao and Zhou Enlai. Remember, he was the one who refused US offer to replace RoC with India on the UNSC in 1957 San Francisco meet.

    I applaud your attitude towards Arunachal. Now that India has de facto accepted Tibet as part of China and conceded that Aksai Chin and Tibet-Xingjiang highway should be China monitored, China should act in a gentlemanly manner too.

    New Yorker

    The current slum demolition that is going on is because of illegal migration onto public property. A large number of slums cannot be touched because they are legally the private property of their owners.

    I understand your concerns for China’s concessions towards India over Arunachal. Did you feel the same way when PRC conceded Sikkim to be part of India? It will happen eventually, because there is not even one indigenous separatist movement in Arunachal of any significance. A pro-active attitude by China will go a long way to foster friendship between India and China.

    18 Feb 2005, 11:34

  148. Hu ZhenYu

    Mumbai slum
    link

    What India need a strong man like Mao Zhedong, leads the poor start the revolution.

    Now India is controlled by a small group of rich people, who do not care about the poor. The keep the poor stupid to maintaining their ruling position. They achieve that, by denying poor people's basica human rights to access infrastrucuture, education, medical care.

    18 Feb 2005, 12:05

  149. Hu ZhenYu

    The reality of Mumbai slum.
    Read this thread, see how Aruni talk about it. Then Read the BBC news link see the truth.

    I am a racist, but I am honest. I speak facts.

    This is a very good example of how normally India politican talks.

    18 Feb 2005, 13:08

  150. stone Liu

    Quoted from BBC news "India's 'biggest slum demolitions' " of Thursday, 3 February, 2005:
    "We want to put the fear of the consequences of migration into these people. We have to restrain them from coming to Mumbai" said Vijay Kalam Patil from Mumbai municipality.

    Don't Indian citizens have the basic human right, freedom to move around, within their own country? "put the fear of the consequences of migration into these people"? "restrain them from coming to Mumbai"?

    What a democracy! Ironic!

    18 Feb 2005, 15:52

  151. Huang He

    "Indian software engineers form the backbone of the US Silicon Valley- their contribution can only be perhaps matched by the Japanese."

    Come to silicon valley I would be very surprised to see how you count Japanese. The truth is there are very few Japanese engineers and only few Japanese companies invested here. I strongly believe you are brainwashed.

    18 Feb 2005, 17:01

  152. New Yorker

    Aruni,

    First I would like to express some doubt about if Mauritius Yang is Chinese. I strongly believe he is not, although it is impossible for me to provide any evidence of that.

    But being Chinese or not, he did bring up a very interesting and important topic to all of us——-the calm that is ubiquitously found between the lines of your words, and the calm that can only be found in RIGOR MORTIS !!! I frankly have not seen anybody from any ethnical background showing this kind of appalling SANG-FROID (meaning cold-bloodedness in the English language) in face of the horrible suffering of his own people, by trying all means to justifying their government's wrong doing. I am sure you will argue again that this is not part of the Indian culture, in which people break the leg of the son of a cripple simply because they believe that is what the child of a cripple is supposed to be, where his destiny is !!!

    We Chinese have inexhaustible passion, which distinguishes a human being from rigor motris. We would never, ever be so cold-blooded (or calm in Yang's dictionary) had our people suffered to this extent. we would have worked hot blood out of ourselves to uplift them out of this inferno.

    I here applaud loudly my compatriots' passion !

    18 Feb 2005, 19:24

  153. Hu ZhenYu

    I am looking forward to see how Aruni explain the Mumbai slum destruction. How does this action fit the value of the biggest democracy in the world?

    I know Indians are good at talking; they can talk away “every thing”. But this is a tough case. :)

    19 Feb 2005, 01:50

  154. Hu ZhenYu

    India software engineer?

    I have been dealing with them a lot. I found they are not as good as Chinese software engineer. Many of them are branded as specialist, but they do not really know how computer works. They talk a special version of English that very hard to understand and typing very slow.

    The reason is India does not have much home computer, and network.

    The computer skill of a nation is completely depending on its total owner ship of PC and network. China has the second largest amount of home PC, and broadband everywhere. Therefore, China must have more software engineer than India. How can you become computer expert, which you live in slum without even electricity?

    Today the mainstream software skill is all based on PC, like Linux and Java. Chinese is way ahead of India in Linux and Java. China has its own distribution of Linux and J2ee application server. India has none. Ericsson has closed down its India research centre, due to too poor quality engineer.

    For Chinese software export to over take India, all China need is just one advertising campaign.

    19 Feb 2005, 02:01

  155. Iron Farmer

    #147: and Zhou Enlai. Remember, he was the one who refused US offer to replace RoC with India on the UNSC in 1957 San Francisco meet.

    I thought we may drop the political topic first, but somehow it is way too hot in this thread. Ok, do you know where did the 5 UNSC come from? They presented the Righteousness of WW-II Alliances what fight against invaders Japan and German. Those 5 Alliance are US, Soviet, China, France and Britain. When is your turn to be in the top 5?

    ———————-

    By Yang: To All Chinese in this forum: India is not our enemy, …

    That splits in 2 levels. On official level, you go to any search engine can pull out thousands of article directly quote the top leaders of India insult China as #1 enemy where Chinese side basically ignore it. Then on the individual level, at most you see some like ZhenYu. Each of them understands what does threat means. India has an ambitious to fight against China. But India does not have an ability to make profit from China by war. By definition, India is not a threat to China. China lay down less than 2 percent of its force on Indo-China border vs India use 40% of its force against China. I don’t feel India is on Chinese enemy list.

    19 Feb 2005, 02:59

  156. Chinese Canadian

    Agree with Mr Hu Zhen Yu on his last post about Indian software engineering. I have met a few Indians here, and they all show very strong stubbornness—-you basically can not persude or convince them on anything even after you have shown them all the proof/evidence. Their way of thinking and handling things is also uncomprehensible….......don't know what to say.

    I believe this is due to their last couple of hundred years of history as a colonized country by the British, what a pity for such a great country, such a long-lasting culture ! They however still have opportunities to change all this but not before they realize their weak points.

    I do not have any strong sentiment for Indians though, or a sigh might be the best way of describing my feeling every time thinking of India.

    19 Feb 2005, 03:04

  157. Iron Farmer

    #139: I personally will not feel uncomfortable that some disputed territory be ceded to India if our diplomats can be sure that, on so doing, India will take this gesture from China deep in their heart and be a friend of China ever after. Some hundreds or thousands of kilometer square territory for a peaceful west border and peaceful relationship with a neighbour full of potential definitely worth to seal the deal: we then can concentrate on more urgent issues of development instead of worrying for

    Assume you have a dispute with a neighbor. You don’t try to solute the problem with him instead pull you wife to the side, “Honey, lets cede our bedroom to him to seal the deal.” That is not ridiculous to me. What really chocked me was on message #139. There were some many logical mistakes:
    1)The area between McMahon line to the original Indo-China border 90% control by India and 10% control by China. Approximately China occupied 10,000 km where India occupied 90,000km. Ceded “some handreds km” does not do any good to India only prove you are irregally occupying their land. You must cede 10,000km. But that was on the west, the east border also have huge piece to give out of Indians will not happy. You wont have peace anyway. After cede all land, India wont thank because those were their land. You must sorry for occupied so long. We see a lot of India think Tibet is not part of China. China must give up. I tell you now the problem just starts. Where is not border between Tibet and China, Indian certainly want to have 2/3 of Chinese land.
    2)From history point of view, Ceding land trade for peace are be critical point of melting point for each Chinese dynasty. Only the wars approached.
    3)From the natural point, the claim by China was original belong to China. Both Chinese government and India government had history map to prove that.
    4)No a single power will give up its land for peace. Ceding in this case is completely non-logic stupidity.

    ————————-

    #138: It is worrisome to note that, recently in Internet forums, aggressive attitudes powered by recent success in Chinese economy has flamed over blown extremist nationalistic mentality among some Chinese (not exactly here, but I feel some shadows of it here too). They want to fight Russian northward, USA in the south over Taiwan straight, Japan in the east and India on the west front, and still come out victor on all fronts …. It seems to me that recent economic success has already burn blind quite some of Chinese youth which renders them looked, sometimes, lunatic. Aggressive attitudes definitely won’t help in getting constructive ideas from peers.

    I cannot agree with Yang any bit. extremist nationalistic does not belong to Chinese. The west have 10 times extremist more than China by number, 100 times more the percent. Get a chance to read other English web site? Can you give ½ of example to me which country have power like China stay so calm when everyone put hands in and play dirty in its nation? Even India know to play Tibet game with China, even Philippines put tens of Chinese fishmen in their jail where they only fished on disputed water. And Japan, it intent to interfere Chinese Taiwan, Japs just announce if Chinese water near Taiwan has trouble, they will support US and Taiwan. Are you still a man, do you still have a thing hunging over there. Someone will fnck your sh*t out from mouth if you continue to test my limit of temper.

    19 Feb 2005, 03:28

  158. Hu Zhen Yu

    I think I agree. We do need a strong leadership. But I’d much rather we had our version of Deng Xiaoping rather than Mao.

    I think you are daydreaming about China’s software industry. Pick up the latest report from McKinsey or The Economist about this part of China’s economy- most software companies simply pirate legitimate software, there is no economies of scale and no corporate vision. China is at least 7–8 years behind India in software and falling further behind. Indian software engineers work all over the globe. China has spent far more than India ‘advertising’ itself (whatever that means), so why not do it here too?

    As ex-premier Zhu Rongji said to the Indian press, ‘You are the best in software, we are the best in hardware. If we work together, we can be the best in the world.’

    Stone Liu

    As far as a Shanghainese friend of mine told me, you need special passes to get to Shanghai. There is no such rule for Mumbai. Indian citizens are free to move in and out of Mumbai. Surely you recognise that that does not entail building houses anywhere- for that you need to have a legitimate ownership of the land.

    New Yorker

    This I agree with- Chinese in general are a lot more passionate about their country than Indians, at least that is true for the generation before mine. The result can be seen in relative economic performance since the 1960s. But the mindset is changing in India ever since the 1990s.

    But I don’t accept your attacks on Indian culture. Societal evils exist in all societies. Secondly, who are you to talk about state hiding citizens’ suffering from the public eye when CCP hides details about bird flu, SARS and AIDS in China?

    Iron Farmer

    Yes, the UNSC initially did have the 5 victors of WW-2. However, after Cheng Kai Shek was thrown out of mainland to Taiwan, the US was very apprehensive about the legitimacy of RoC on one hand, and replacing it with another communist power on the other. An informal offer was made to Nehru in 1957 San Fransisco meet of the UN, to replace the RoC with India. I believe Nehru’s exact words were, ‘China is our neighbour and a great nation. There is no way we can deprive China and take up this position’.

    How gullible he was to trust Mao and company!

    Arunachal Pradesh is as much part of India as Tibet is part of China. Accept the first and we will have peace with the latter. Do not accept the former and it does not make the slightest difference to us- only your students will learn incorrect geography. Jiang Zemin has been eased out from his military position by Hu Jintao who is a much more sensible man. Therefore, China is unlikely to do anything drastic on this front.

    19 Feb 2005, 13:03

  159. Hu ZhenYu

    India software is service business; they do not do any products. Any one see any software products made in India? India also contributed nothing to the open source community.

    Back office and call centre, are similar job like cleaning hotel. Any software engineer with self-respect will not take this kind of job.

    India is especially suitable for this kind of job. First they speak English, second Indian is a domesticated race, it has been tamed by British, so it is docile and knows how to serve western lord better.

    Chinese are way too independent and aggressive to do service business. Recently China adopted its own standard in 3G networks, and Wireless LAN, making its own processor, buys IBM PC, really scare the shit out of western world.

    19 Feb 2005, 13:41

  160. Indian software industry is so much more than just BPO. Indian companies are increasingly more reliant on developing tailor made software for western and indeed other Asian (including Indian) companies. Microsoft, IBM, Linux, etc. all have leading R & D facilities in Bangalore not to mention Indian companies like Wipro, Infosys, Satyam, TCS, etc. In fact, only 3% of Infosys' $1 billion revenue comes from BPO. Indian ITes sector is no longer dependent solely on BPO. You don't have to take my word for it- just pick up the special on outsourcing in The Economist from 6 weeks ago. In fact, the March 12 Economist will have a India-China comparison special which I am sure will mention this as well.

    I choose to ignore your comments about Indian culture being the cause for the thriving service sector. Is that why China is trying to boost its own? Also, if the Indian BPO boom is a sign of servitude, isn't the same the case for cheap manufacturing sweatshops in China? At least it is Indian companies which do the job here, unlike MNC infested Chinese manufacturing.

    Finally, I think you're being naive about Lenovo 'scaring the shit' out of the western world. IBM sold its PC business because it is no longer profitable and it wants to move into consultancy. Lenovo has potentially made a big error. The IBM brandname is not that valuable anymore as well, as Dell, Apple and Compaq squeeze it out.

    19 Feb 2005, 14:27

  161. Iron Farmer

    #158: China is at least 7–8 years behind India in software and falling further behind. Indian software engineers work all over the globe. China has spent far more than India ‘advertising’ itself (whatever that means), so why not do it here too?

    Aruni, one day you read a news said India export $20 millions of car tires where Japan export only $5 million in the same period. Don’t now conclude “Yes, we beat dammit Japs”. What made you so optimistic before you add there are $200 millions worth of car tires export in Japanese cars statistic elsewhere. Some ways is on Chinese software. Since Chinese has strong industrial mussel it is reasonable to Chinese sell more profitable system than thinner profit in parts(software alone). Many Indians love to live on imagination than reality. China exports $5 billion software vs $6 billion India sells, don’t to mention China produced $20 billion software in 2003(or $27b last year) sold domestically vs India almost none in unit of billion. If you really think China is falling further behind, I strong recommend you do some research. If you don’t have heart problem you may save time to read my found.

    A fundamental of outsourcing is based on “cheap, well-educated, English-speaking knowledge workers” by American eyes. But when India walk out English zone, it does not have any advantage over China. Even in term of English zone, India is losing aground to China in all key measurement listed above. Review the data on #142, Shanghai has better quality property yet priced 70% cheaper than Mombay, on software field is same, same level China has 40% price advantage vs India according to this:
    India software export grows at 30%, China doubles annually,,,

    —————-
    Outsourcing: Likely Trends for the Next Decade (page 4 of 8)
    As for the "well-educated" part, there is hardly any question that China can hold its own with India or virtually any other country in the world. In a recent op-ed column, New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman remarks on a conversation that he had with the CEO of Intel, Craig Barrett:

    "Craig Barrett, the C.E.O. of Intel, noted that Intel sponsors an international science competition every year. This year it attracted some 50,000 American high school kids. 'I was in China 10 days ago,' Mr. Barrett said, 'and I asked them how many kids in China participated in the local science fairs that feed into the national fair [and ultimately the Intel finals]. They told me six million kids.'

    "ConnectITChina, a Shanghai consultancy, estimates China's software outsourcing revenue will more than double, to $5 billion, by 2005. Gartner Inc. predicts that by 2007 China will pull in $27 billion for IT services, including call centers and back-office work, matching India."
    link

    Top Programmer Competition, Ranking, by country and by college
    link
    link

    ————
    Statistics show that sales revenue of China's software industry has kept increasing in recent years from 59.3 billion yuan (US$4.7 billion) in 2000 to 160 billion yuan in 2003.
    Export of software has also jumped from US$250 million in 1999 to US$2 billion in 2003. link

    India's software exports to touch 6 bln dollars in 2005
    link

    19 Feb 2005, 15:31

  162. stone Liu

    "Arunachal Pradesh is as much part of India as Tibet is part of China. Accept the first and we will have peace with the latter. "

    Aruni, you sounds like a merchant by these words. Can rightness and justice be trade-off? whether Tibet belongs to China and whether Arunachal Pradesh belongs to India can only be judged by a fixed principle. if you think can even trade-off on this basic principle, I doubt your morality soundness.

    BTW, Not accepting Tibet as part of China does not make the slightest difference to us- only your students will learn incorrect geography.

    As for Arunachal Pradesh, It is surely Chinese land because the native people there are mostly Tibetian-like and Tibetian culture influenced people, check the temples there before 1950s you would know it. This piece of land was claimed by Bristish colonist, to which the Chinese emperor rejected. The Nehru's govenment just inherited this illegal claim from their ex colonist master. We Chinese has more urgent job to do at this moment, but it doesn't mean we accept your illegal occupation of it. let go and see, the justice would be redeemed eventually

    19 Feb 2005, 15:35

  163. Iron Farmer

    ==((Finally, I think you're being naive about Lenovo 'scaring the shit' out of the western world. IBM sold its PC business because it is no longer profitable and it wants to move into consultancy. Lenovo has potentially made a big error. The IBM brandname is not that valuable anymore as well, as Dell, Apple and Compaq squeeze it out.))

    Dell is a giant. Apple is computer for special hobbits thus times more expensive. Compaq/HP is a falling turkey, If I am not wrong, the will brake apart within a year. The CEO got fire for merged them. Compaq is heading for a dead end. Lenovo is Legend, it is a HongKong listed company has large portion of socks on Chinese government. Spend $1.6B to use “IBM” for 5 years, own their PC property(offices, manufacture buildings) and their experience maybe or may not be a good deal. Like NYT said, the world knows Chine$e and Lenovo, that worth $1B along. IBM is a US defense contractor, Lenovo is the largest computer maker with close government link. I cannot deny it maybe a ‘good’ deal.

    PC business is no longer profitable in US. But shoe industry started lost huge in last decade in US. It is still very profitable in China and Indonesia. India starts to share tiny bit of shoe making profit now.

    19 Feb 2005, 16:27

  164. Hu ZhenYu

    India should stop comparing itself with China. India is India, China is China, and there is nothing similar. Please do not use the word "we" any more, there is only India and China but no "we".

    In China’s defence strategy, economical strategy, India stopped to matter long time ago.

    19 Feb 2005, 18:19

  165. Huang He

    Hey everyone here did not rebut his claim that his shanghai friend told him people needs certificate to get into shanghai? This is ridiculous! In China people can move around the country like american people drive around with only a driver license. We got to tell the truth to this guy otherwise he will just spread the wrong message around and be proud of indian's hypocrite democracy.

    19 Feb 2005, 18:38

  166. Mauritius Yang

    To Hu Zhen Yu:
    Agree with you that natural selection will select the best fit to allow survival. This theory fits well in animal kingdom. However, in human race, a problem arises: what characters can be considered “best fit” characters? Strong and intelligent are definitely characters of best fits. How about being most adaptive to environment? It should also be a “best fit” character, don’t you agree. I don’t believe at all that an individual or a country can survive and prosper if it encounters enemy everywhere on every front. It will definitely fail one way or another, no matter how strong or intelligent it is, for it is not adaptive and because it is always in conflict with the environment in which it lives.
    Germen and Japanese were once very strong and intelligent (with best scientists at that time), nobody can resist them alone with own strengths. Yet they fail and perished, they got too many enemies and they are fighting on all fronts against everybody.
    Present China is strong and intelligent, and it is in good terms with surrounding countries. Chinese present foreign policies are well in the direction of “best fit”. Same strategy should also be applied to India. Be good with neighbours, for this neighbour will remain one’s neighbour in next ten thousand years. Arrogance will only fuel tension which will absorb one’s all attention and resource, and finally lead to perish for both.
    To A Chinese:
    Thank you for refreshing my memories on 1962 Sino-Indian war, I still remember what I read. Me too don’t agree that a British be the one who drew borderline between China and India, and worst of all, he took a local government as representative of whole China. Nehru was taking a badly calculated risk on stepping into British shoes who were retreating at that time. There is nothing wrong for a politician to be ambitious, this is their nature. Only that being ambitious is not enough to succeed, lots of skills are still needed to turn ambition into reality, including good calculation of risk, cunningness, pretend to be on moral high ground…… etc.
    On ceding territories to India, may be I have not expressed correctly. I agree with you that ceding territories is the last resort before full war, our contemporary history has proved it. This is the last thing one will do while facing foreign aggression. Also agree with you that Chinese troop’s war behaviour was unprecedentedly exemplary, reason being that we Chinese did not regard Indians as enemies, only that they were fooled by their ex master. The message passed on to our Indian friends during the 1962 war was that: “Brother, eat well, drink well, go back home, this is not your place. And don’t be fooled by British again, they are hiding somewhere laughing while we are fighting here. Just go back home. Don’t worry, we Chinese will never take your Delhi, this is your home!”
    Should British be of good intention, they should come out to clarify things for us Chinese and Indian. Instead, they have never turned up, even 40 years after.
    However, a distinction should be drawn between India and, say, Japan. Indian people is not aggressive people by nature, their life philosophy is close to ours (or ours close to theirs), which is peace and harmony should reign, room to live for everybody. Presenting some goodwill gesture to our Indian friends in order to establish a long lasting peace is definitely worthwhile. This goodwill gesture may include ceding some territories, our diplomats to judge if yes or no, when and how, under what circumstance. Indian will not claim our Beijing after all.

    19 Feb 2005, 19:03

  167. Mauritius Yang

    What prompted me to say this, well, “irritating” proposition is that fact that borderlines of all nations in the world have never been an absolutely stagnant and static lines, they change over times though very long time needed for a change. Some land were ceded to Burma while finalizing borderline issues, as these lands were deemed Burma’s after peaceful discussion and studies with Burma, so give to them. Sino-Burma border is ever since a peaceful borderline where practically no troop is stationed there. If similar can be achieved with India, why not give them a tip.
    I do not to the ultra nationalistic attitude to send people of 2 country to fight to death because of one inch of land. This is exactly the thing that both governments are trying to avoid on keeping ultra nationalists at bay.

    To New Yorker
    I am sorry that I didn’t notice that you come to debate in this forum not to contribute your thoughts and to share your point of views, but to dominate over Indians and to express your frustration towards Indians.
    Your frustration which leads you to behave so hot-blooded is exactly that part of human nature which was artfully utilised by Hitler to send whole Germany into flame. Was Germany in short of thoughtful people? Never, they use to produce some of the most influential philosophers, including my hero Karl Marx well before Hitler. Sorry to comment that your exclamations like “we Chinese have inexhaustible passion…..” sounds very Hitlerian, like “We Aryans shall dominate the world, all other races are just mere species …”. Come on, what era we are now? Every country has more or less some trouble at home, Mumbai mayor has to clean the slum as a step to progress (to catch up to Shanghai as some say), a Chinese mayor was busy looking for bodies still buried in coal mine last week. Don’t laugh at Indians, we have our own equally stupid troubles, too.
    I cannot prevent you from “applaud loudly my compatriots' passion !”, I would suggest you not to vent it out in front of people of other countries who are equally patriotic as you are, especially those people from countries with which China has unsettled border problems. Such action would only let people find you aggressive and badly cultivated, and associate your manner to China’s manner, and Chinese in general.
    Nice manner of expression of own view, even sharply different from other, is generally viewed as friendly debate, whereas bad manners can only be termed as rude.
    Sadly to notice that such blind heated patriotism is now rampant in China. Youngsters in China do not lack knowledge, but they generally lack cultivation in refine humanity. General degradation in social morality has been badly criticized in Chinese media as a very serious failure in education of Chinese youth. And I just wonder how people educated under such circumstance can honour their own country once they are in foreign countries.
    And this blind and lunatic “patriotism” is in fact most dangerous and most worrisome for leaders of a country. Too few of it the country is dead, but too much of it would create unnecessary tension with foreign countries. There is nothing more harmful than those who purposely create tensions with neighbouring countries so as to prove their patriotism. Numerous Chinese historical events show devastation that this false patriotism can bring(喜好边功之祸).
    Mr. New Yorker, and alike, writes good English, but apparently didn’t learn even a piece in English good manner and politeness. His left brain is lacking seriously in development as compared to his right brain, which renders him imbalanced. If he is a real patriot, he should not develop enemy for China. This is the best one can do for his country.

    19 Feb 2005, 19:05

  168. Mauritius Yang

    On my identity: am a pure blood Chinese, fortunately not fully “educated” in China, yet deeply patriotic, believe deeply communism will prevail at the end, and find greatest danger for China is the general sentiment among Chinese youth that whole world owe China something. And understand why absolute most of Chinese in foreign countries still labour and exploited (white collar slave) and very few can ever reach top positions in his company. Great admirer of CCP who build modern China from near scratch. Never find racist smart (smart people understand and accept people very different from them), never find rude people communicative. Find Indian people general friendly, understand that only way for Indian people to become really free is to break away from British shadow.

    19 Feb 2005, 19:10

  169. Hu ZhenYu

    I am talking racist things; only because of getting annoyed by the Indians openly telling lies and attack China’s economical achievements.

    What I mean is if you India think you are good, why don’t you build something bigger moderner than China did? Put a man to space; win lots of gold medal in Olympic games. Why you spend so much time in attack China’s achievements?

    Aruni talks like a typical Indian politician. He talks grammar correct English, but all the contents are lies. From his thread, it is very clear; this guy is not trust worthy.

    19 Feb 2005, 19:48

  170. Mauritius Yang

    Aruni and others,
    Am not in IT(am in petroleum), but allow me to share some observations on IT.:
    1. In Mauritius, recently both Indian Infosys and Chinese HuaWei moved in. So, Chinese good in hardware while Indian good in software must be true.
    2. Looked wrong to say that China is better than India on software production. Chinese made softwares are hardly available out of China, whereas Indians are writing codes for, well, Microsoft which most of us are right now using to read posts. What India does not have is project management: Microsoft and alike tell Indian software engineers what to do and they do it. Indian can break though only by going direct to customers, setup connections, understand their needs, and do the programming.
    3. Chinese software industry, though lagging behind now, is catching up fast. As Iron Farmer indicated above, in general, China has better industrial organisation than India, catching up in software industry may not take that long as 7–8 years. Before that, India is still better than China, so Indian firms still got some time to look east.
    4. Lenovo's business decision may be good as well as may be bad. Looked true to say that selling computers is no more profitable, but getting a Chinese proiduct to international brand recognition is not easy. IBM computers may be only a stepping stone for Lenovo. IBM > Lenovo computer > Lenovo pendrives > Lenovo xxx.

    Aruni, On Shanghai travel: nothing needed to go to practically anywhere in China. In southern China (where am from), Uigur people from Xinjiang are selling mutton brochettes on streetside, 2 yuan a brochette.

    On Indian quest for UN permanent seat: UN is a badly bureaucratic organization, Security Council is unreasonably powerful. But this is the best organization we can have till now to sort out international affaires, sort of best among worst. I agree that UN needs reforms, but reforms will definitely incur reorganization of present settled structure, new wars will have to be fought again to determine who is leader and who are followers. Apart from UK, all other Permanent Members are very independent from each other, economically or culturally or xxx-ly. With most of its ruling elites heavily UK linked, will India be able to be a pole by itself? Or will it tend to (emphasis on TEND TO) agree with UK and anglo-saxons? UN is one of the least effecient organization I have ever seen (look at it allow US to invade Iraq for pre-established “reasons”, 500K Rwanda people got killed while UN just look on one side), but it at least provides a platform for all countries to come to discuss and to sort out peacefully if possible, no other organization can have this function. Without it, every single minor conflict will evolve into war. Re-organization will definitely be very troublesome, or even disastrous if things go wrong. Is our tender world ready for this? Is India ready to tackle this tremendous change in international environment? Will India be better off without present UNSC and the relative stability it brings to whole world? I strongly believe Indian quest for UNSC permanent membership is an induced desire by power elites in India to satisfy their own ego. Look at Germany, happy without being a permanent member, and yet people ask for its opinion in many major international issues, because it is one of the 2 engines of EU.

    19 Feb 2005, 21:57

  171. Mauritius Yang

    On Nehru: my feeling is that he was very ambitious to become leader of 3rd world countries (another one is Nasser of Egypt), and wanted to get maximum out of inheritance from retreating British. These are perfectly noble pursues for any politicians. But he misjudged Chinese leaders’ determination, strength and skill on launching Forward Policy. So he failed (Mao failed on something, Nasser failed on some other things, Nehru failed on this particular thing). In order to be able to report to his own people, he threw blames to Mao and Zhou En Lai. This tactic is quite popular in game of politics. In China, gang of 4 got all blames for disasters of Cultural Revolution whereas we know some others were also responsible, in one way or another for the disaster. Nobody can be sure to what extend Nehru was humiliated and trapped by Mao/Zhou En Lai, these things are stuff deep in heart nobody knows, just like nobody knows what thought really prompted Mao to launch Cultural Revolution. Nehru said he was humiliated and trapped, so whole India believed him (who else to believe? He was country leader of India after all). And here goes the victimized feeling of India vs China, till now.
    Some other practical tips:
    1. Shanghai is very safe, no problem walking on street midnight and alone. Only occasional prostitutes can harasse apparent foreigners, by asking you to buy them some bread, things like this. Just ignore them.
    2. Out of Shanghai, even in Beijing, be very careful. Better always accompanied by local friend. Never show your wallet, show no pity to street beggars (some even self inflige wounds to ease their begging task). Never follow a stranger to unknown place because he asks you to. Never change foreign currencies on street. Always ask street directions to policemen.

    19 Feb 2005, 21:58

  172. Hu ZhenYu

    Aruni, when you make reports, please also include Mumbai slum destruction link

    Through so many post, we hope all the Chinese have taught you a lesson, how to be honest, how to make arguments that reflect the facts.

    20 Feb 2005, 12:40

  173. Iron Farmer

    First there are articles, and then there is reading between the lines. You have failed to do the latter and here’s why-

    The website about coders is a joke. It is a private web site and the results are not representative. You better hope so, otherwise Poland is better than China.

    I seriously doubt your intelligence if you say that manufacturing is more profitable than the service sector. Have you forgotten a little island named the United Kingdom which virtually slashed its manufacturing arm in the 1980s and has become a leaner and more competitive economy, compared to the ‘sick old man’ of Europe- Germany, which focused on manufacturing.

    Also, talking of imaginations- your figures about China’s software industry are nonsense. One of your articles claims that from $5bn in 2005 (predicted), China’s BPO would reach $27bn in 2007. Now, such a phenomenal rise is impossible given the various constraints the industry faces. Fluency in English is just the beginning. China’s poor intellectual property right is another important factor.

    Secondly, show me a source for China’s software exports. Those are negligible compared to India’s. India exports around $12bn worth of software and services and around $3.4bn for the local market. Additionally, the worth of the hardware market is $3.75bn. Therefore, the IT market is currently valued at around $20bn. According to most predictions, it is set to reach around $80bn by the end of the decade [Source- NASSCOM].

    I mentioned McKinsey’s focused report on Chinese software industry in my last post. Here are a few quotes-

    “To compete with India, China will have to consolidate its highly fragmented industry to gain the size and expertise needed to capture large international projects. Currently, there is little movement in this direction”

    “But shortcomings in the structure of China's IT industry prevent it from taking full advantage of an increasing English speaking graduate force. Although revenues from IT services are on the rise, they are barely half of India's $12.7 billion a year. Growth is driven by domestic demand-most customers are small and midsize Chinese enterprises that want their software customised to their own needs” [Source- McKinsey, 2004]

    Stone Liu

    We want our students to learn correct geography. Therefore, for all practical purposes Tibet has been recognised as an autonomous part of China. However, Chinese students still learn incorrectly, as for all matters that should concern us in the real world, Arunachal Pradesh is part of India.

    You are seriously day dreaming about Arunachal demographics. There are three types of people in the state- Mahayana Buddhists (35%), Aborigines (40%) and Hindus (25%) approximately. All of the cultures are inter-mixed and have been influenced a lot by Hinduism and Buddhism, both of which are Indian religions.

    Huang He

    You are free to check any credible source. I did not simply take my Shanghainese friend’s word for it. Check the recent special report on Chinese urbanisation by the BBC, the same fact is mentioned there too. There is a lot of restriction on movement and migration in China.

    20 Feb 2005, 14:24

  174. Mauritius Yang

    Yes, keeping the ultra nationalists at bay and resolving the border disputes keeping ground realities in mind is the best option, rather than get hooked up on history about the McMahon line. That is why India recognised Tibet to be de facto under Beijing’s jurisdiction, and China returned the favour by recognising Sikkim as part of India.

    I totally agree with the dangers of neo fascist mentality in China, believing that a payback time will come for the world when all the “wrongs” done to China will be undone. That is a feeling which Adolf Hitler played on the German minds after Versailles 1918, and which resulted in the whole of the free world uniting against Germany.

    I think you’re mistaken about Germany. Recently, Gerhard Shroeder entered into agreement with Japan and India to launch a joint bid for entry of these three powers into the UNSC.

    Nehru was no doubt ambitious, but he genuinely trusted USSR and China, two biggest mistakes in post colonial Indian history.

    Hu Zhen Yu

    If you are thinking India does not feature on China’s strategic map, then why still prop up banana republics in the Indian sub-continent, or oppose our legitimate claim to the UNSC?

    India is very much on the minds of the cadres in Beijing, and a good lot of them do not want a competitor in Asia. But that is typical of monopoly loving communists.

    The problem is that you cannot take criticism, like most communists. I openly accept all of India’s deficiencies, but you refuse to do so for China. With a GDP per capita of $1,000 and $600, there is a long way to go for both China and India respectively. India’s Information Technology sector, India’s BPO sector, India’s ornaments sector, pharmaceuticals, bio-technology, etc. are all notable achievements.

    However much you criticise India’s democracy (and with some of it I agree), but no nation of 1 billion people with so much diversity has sustained a functioning democratic system with reasonable freedom for its citizens. That itself is a good thing, for me anyway.

    China is the nation to aspire to for India in the short-term at least. That is the highest compliment I could bestow upon our neighbour. I can’t help you if you don’t see my respect for China.

    20 Feb 2005, 14:24

  175. Iron Farmer

    ==What India does not have is project management: Microsoft and alike tell Indian software engineers what to do and they do it. Indian can break though only by going direct to customers, setup connections, understand their needs, and do the programming.

    Indians has good programmers, very skillful small project managers only lack in high-level designers. Nobody in US is willing to outsource everything to somebody else in US or oversea. Everyone wants to have control on its own program. Especially the core technology/secretes on high level design. India never get a chance to learn those. Because India and the West are on vertical food chain, US eat on the table where India eats US throw down. No benefit conflict thus less risk (make fixed profit from difference of labor cost) but have limited the future.

    Chinese started in their own way later. Since the home market is large enough to grow, it writes for itself from small to large. The road to success is rather bumpy, speed is slow and 9 out of 10 dies before reach their targets. Survivors finally get up to the table where MS, Oracle and other are dining. (on article “Outsourcing: Likely Trends for the Next Decade” already stated MS sees a pain from China). There is few government can use homegrown software exclusively without give MS a penny. China is one if not a unique one. As everyone know, initial investment in these field is about $1 of revenue by $10,000 of input, absolutely not profit for many years. I will continue on my previous message why “inefficient finance system is a must for economic success” later.

    From 1999 to 2002, the software market was steaming hot. US had huge job vacancy for limited programmer supply. Outsource price mostly $60+/hour in US. Indian said they received project at price around $30/hr. Current outsource price comes down to $20/hr for Indians, compare with US market is around $35 to $50/hr lately. As more and more outsource service companies available, prices will continue to slide. The over all market still grow but will peak out soon.

    20 Feb 2005, 14:25

  176. Iron Farmer

    I am sure you haven't heard about offshoring. The outsourcing business is not always vertically organised. Companies offshore part of their operations to Indian companies/open branches in India for this purpose.

    20 Feb 2005, 14:30

  177. Iron Farmer

    same, you are not regularly own the codes you write, because you get paid for doing it. Second most of your codes wont work independently because it is only a portion of non-critical portion of a program, you are a subcontractor.

    20 Feb 2005, 16:43

  178. Iron Farmer

    You are describing yet another form of outsourcing. You have no comprehension of what offshoring is. The latter is when another company is given charge of a particular division/operation within the client firm. That also necessiates application development for that particular division for which the firm to which the job has been offshored to in turn outsources it to a third company.

    20 Feb 2005, 17:18

  179. Hu ZhenYu

    India software is a very small business but made lots of noises. The total size of India software industry is only 12 billion dollars.
    Aruni go to check, the percentage of software in India GDP.

    You still did not reply to Mumbai slum destruction? If you try to make honest comparision of Mumbai and Shanghai, how can you miss this?

    20 Feb 2005, 19:34

  180. Hu ZhenYu

    In China’s strategy, EU, USA, Russia, East Asia members are the focus.

    India is a problem that have been solved. We let our little buddy Pakistan to keep India entertained. About your seats in UNSC, that is way out of your league. UNSC member seats are for super power only! You application based on 1 billion people is totally groundless.

    You have 1 billion people, is your GDP top 10? Is your Olympic performance top 100???

    Kashmir region is very interesting. It is a card Chinese can play. If it get independent, the northern part of India is also very likely to ask for independent. India might be broken into pieces like formal Soviet Union.

    20 Feb 2005, 20:05

  181. New Yorker

    I still do not believe that Mauritius Yang is Chinese, I actually think he is Aruni himself. He has given himself a different name and used different tone for his comments, but his typical Indian type of way of thinking betrayed himself.

    Do not play this kind of game, my friend, the Chinese culture is saturated with the ultimate wisdom, and your trick to us is just a kid's play.

    20 Feb 2005, 22:04

  182. New Yorker

    Aruni,

    All my comments posted here so far have been intended only to show my disagreement on (1) India’s democracy is authentic and worth the pride from the Indian people, and (2) India and China at this time are at the same level of development (economy-wise, society-wise, etc), an assumption on which it makes sense to compare the two countries or more specifically Mumbai vs Shanghai.

    As I pointed out in the above comments, human civilization is a pyramidal structure, with the basic human rights such as food, lodge and clothing forming the foundation on which a culture is built. Without these, the political system that sits on the culture, be it a dictatorship or democracy, is doomed to fail, as has been witnessed countless times in the history. Today, all the evidences have shown that the Indian government has yet been successful in providing its people the very basic human necessities. The current political system of India is therefore standing on shaking ground and can not be expected to last long if the situation is not changed. And what is worse is that the Indian government has not even shown any determination (other than demolishing slums) to make it change, let alone how and when.

    The Chinese communist authoritarian government, however, has long realized this and embarked on an unprecedented drive to feed, lodge and dress its people once the civil war was over and the new China was born. Obvious to almost everybody is China’s economic success of today and much much less visible was the painful efforts of yesterday by both the government and people. The modern agriculture and industry of China as a system was formed in fact in 1970’s thanks to 20+ years of hard working and planning. Going on alongside was a series of campaigns to meliorate the Chinese culture (e.g. the Cultural Revolution), which turned out to be less successful (or disastrous for a certain period of time from a certain perspective) but did greatly change the mentality of the people, who have ever since been irreversibly more optimistic, proactive and open-minded. The country’s political reform did not start until late 1990’s and took a different (than many other countries) approach of working its way up right from the bottom——millions of villages. China may not eventually adopt the western style democracy if it proves not fit into the nation’s cultural and societal context, but the spirit of people-governing and government accountability will undoubtedly be more and more seen in political life.

    Many of those bad things China has been accused of were or still are truth and I have no intention to deny. My integrity CULTIVATED IN THE CHINESE CULTURE (unlike some other impure yet loyal offspring of western culture of hypocrisy and brutality) prevents me of doing this and I am not ashamed of admitting. I am confident that we Chinese are and will be doing our best to make the improvement, in contrast with many Indians consciously or unconsciously try every bit of their effort to find excuses for or justify whatever exists and refuse to ameliorate the situation. The futures of the two countries will very much be shaped by these different mentalities. May our eyes be wide open and see.

    20 Feb 2005, 22:30

  183. Hu ZhenYu

    Go slum.

    Let's go to visit Mumbai slum, to see how people lives there and enjoy the world's biggest democracy.

    If Shanghai's shining skyscrapper does not means progress, let's see how the world's biggest slum means human rights?

    20 Feb 2005, 22:42

  184. New Yorker

    I don’t know how much worth my word is to you, but I can assure you that I do not take on another avatar to defend myself. If you choose not to believe me, then that is your choice of course. However, keep in mind that I could have deleted many posts that were against my opinion since this is my personal blog. But I haven’t done so because I believe in a fair debate.

    Regarding economic development, I have always maintained that China is at least 10 years ahead of India in most areas. However, there remain significant sectors of the economy in which India leads and is doing very well in others. India needs to take a leaf out of China’s book in certain areas for sure especially manufacturing and infrastructure.

    Regarding democracy, India had a quasi democratic system ever since the Indus Valley Civilisation, therefore I refuse to believe that it is entirely a western concept. However, India has been influenced a lot by the British parliamentary system which I see no problem with because China too has been influenced to a greater or lesser degree by Marx’s communism and Hitler’s authoritarianism. As I said so many times here, ‘no culture worth preserving is static’.

    None of your points about Indian serf mentality has been proved. In fact, the more you argue the same, the worse it looks upon China because similar arguments can be forged for it too. I suggest we quit the mud slinging and talk about real and pressing issues, not waste our time in ego fanning.

    Hu Zhen Yu

    If Indian software industry is ‘small’ with $12bn and 30% growth, is the Chinese software industry “ultra small”? (to modify your phrase). This type of comment makes no economic sense.

    If UNSC seat is not for “little power” like India, are Japan and Germany “micro little powers” too? They have larger economies than China and are far richer. In fact, the UN reforms are irreversible. It is only a matter of time.

    I believe you touched on insanity when you said that northern part of India would want to be removed from the country. Do you know that Delhi is in northern India? Did you know that the most recruits to the Indian army come from Punjab which is also in northern India? By similar logic we can say that the separatism in Xingjiang and Tibet will lead to a break up of China, of course after Taiwan becomes formally independent.

    You are making a joke out of yourself, I suggest you stop your ranting before it is as clear as daylight.

    Of course my report would include Mumbai’s slum problem, just like it would include Shanghai’s restriction of movement issue.

    21 Feb 2005, 10:54

  185. stone Liu

    ——"if Indian software industry is ‘small’ with $12bn and 30% growth, is the Chinese software industry “ultra small”? (to modify your phrase). This type of comment makes no economic sense." —-Aruni

    Aruni, don't underestimate Chinese software industry. As many posts here already pointed out, in many exported Chinese-manufactured hardware, like digital-controled lathe, electric appliance, etc, there are integrated control software fixed in the hardware. This is totally different with the pure "coding" jobs Indians did on the platforms ( Java, C++......) provided by others, and within the framework fixed by others. Chinese has full ownership, full control of these technique, from the terminal interfaces on the top, down to every hardware details to execute the program on the bottom. This systematic "know-how" is more valuable and powerful. of course Chinese are not content with this “ultra small” achievement. We are trying to setup our own IT industry, from CPU to operating system, from network hardware to software, we will make them all independently Chinese made. The Chinese developped, designed and made CPUs are already in the domestic market, though its capacity 2 or 3 years behind the US CPUs, its low price and the support from the government will surely made the Chinese CPU technique and industry grow up in the domestic market. We've already seen several versions of Chinese made Operating systems based on open-sourced Linux. soon we will see software developping environments based on Chinese charactors rather than english alpha-beta, our programmer would program on our own platform( Kava? D++ ?...), in our own language. We must do it since China for ever is an independent, creative and leading civilization, we would never be content and over-proud to do a complementary job within a fixed framework laid out by others.

    21 Feb 2005, 13:55

  186. stone Liu

    —-"If UNSC seat is not for “little power” like India, are Japan and Germany “micro little powers” too? They have larger economies than China and are far richer. In fact, the UN reforms are irreversible. It is only a matter of time." ——Aruni

    Aruni, Japan and Germany are factually “little power”s. if you don't recognise this you know nothing about the international politics.
    They are losers of WW-II, there are still foreign armies stationed in Japan and Germany, so politically they are dwarves, or pets of US. They are also restrained from maintaining a military power, their security is covered by other countries. In other words, they are not "normal" countries, since they don't have the full basic rights of a country, e.g. independency and dignity. Would India share seats with these conutries?

    21 Feb 2005, 15:05

  187. Stone Liu

    I expect Hu Zhen Yu not to understand my arguments, but I was disappointed that you did so too. Nowhere would you find me ridiculing Chinese software industry. I was being sarcastic to Hu because he considers Indian software sector to be insignficant and I was simply pointing out that the size of China's software industry is less than half of India's. Anyway, for both China and India there is great potential in this sector. In fact, Indian companies like Infosys, Wipro, TCS, Satyam, etc. have already set up base in Pudong and are planning acquisitions in the Chinese market. There might be a situation where Indian companies will be adding to the export kitty of Chinese software.

    Secondly, the world of today is a lot different to the world after the Second World War. Germany and Japan are the world's 3rd and 2nd largest ecoomies, and that alone is factor enough for them to be at the UNSC as permanent members. Moreover, Germany is the most populous country of Europe and Japan has a large population too. India is the second most populous country on the planet, is one of the largest and fastest growing economies and is a stable democracy and responsible nuclear power (unlike proliferators who currently sit on the UNSC). If you are however, talking about "victors" of WW2 then India was a separate signatory in the 1945 UN charter and fought on the winning side of the war. Even without that, the world has moved on since 1945.

    21 Feb 2005, 15:33

  188. A Chinese

    Aruni,

    You mentioned somewhere in this blog that Chinese from other internal area entering Shanghai City need some special pass, that is totally nonsense! the fact of matter is nobody needs any permissions to go to Shanghai and living there. The fact is Chinese people can move in and out of Shanghai and living there freely if you have money, even in the past (I mean, more than 25 years ago), Chinese people did not need any permission to move in or move out of Shanghai either, and they are allowed to live there too if they had means to make a living. So I guess you were lying or your Shanghaiese friend did not tell you the truth or you misunderstood it. BTW, I am from Shanghai and I grown up there. Please based on facts when you conclude anything, don't jump to conclusion so quick based on something you just overheard which was not true.

    Regarding your claim that Tibet belongs to China, I totally agree with you because you finally told some truth here. But as what you said that the Arunarchal Predesh is part of India, I have to say (almost every Chinese will say) this is not the truth. The fact of matter China never admitted it as a part of India officially (that was why the war in 1962 happened). If you want to find any piece of information from any Chinese official documents indicating this, please provide it here and I think you will be disappointed. Even the law India passed for it to be a state of India in 1986 did not make it to be a land of India, it is like you steal something from someone and announce it publicly to this person and also to all people around that the thing you just stole belongs you, and this is completely a thief's logic. Therefore, no matter what happened, the Arunarchal will never, ever be a part of India in any sense, it belongs to China and believe it or not, this issue will be eventually be resolved no matter how long it takes, it does not matter if it takes 100 years, even thousand years, China has the patience. (To be continued…)
    A Chinese

    21 Feb 2005, 20:32

  189. A Chinese

    In your other statements, I noticed that you keep attacking China by comparing it to German and by relating it to Hitler's fascist and authorization, then this is another of your false conclusion about China with no basis. It looks like you still young and ignorant about China. Can you tell me what is the Hitler's fascist and what is the Hitler's authororization? Hitler's German invaded most of European countries, massacred millions (including Jewish) and ruled the people in the occupied country crudely and inhumanly, this is called fascist. Japan did the same thing in Asia, and killed uncountable Chinese and also people in other Asian countries, this is called fascist. On the contrary, China used to be deeply hurt by the fascist and colonist and had been a victim of them for a very long time. Starting from the mid of nineteen centuries (Opium War), China was invaded by both western and eastern powers one after another due to the corrupted and the inability of Qing Dynasty, British, France, German, Russian, Japan and etc, they all come. During this period of time, China was forced to sign a series of unequal treaties and was robbed away tremendous treasures by these western powers and also by Japan due to the weakness of Qing Dynasty. New China established in 1949 never admits these unequal treaties. China was also one of the biggest victim of War II due to the invasion of Japanese, many millions of Chinese killed by Japanese fascist, you can find tons of information from the web about this if you are interested in finding the China's role and contribution to the whole World against the fascist during World war II. Different from India, even though China was invaded by a couple of foreign powers when it was week, but it had never ever been "Conquered" or "Colonized", and the fighting never ended starting from the mid of Nineteen centuries until the new China was founded in 1949 with hundreds of millions of Chinese who sacrificed for it. In fact, China is a peace loving country, never bullied others (including India), but we don't admit any unequal things which forced to add to us, and we want things that originally belongs to be back and we provide peacefully ways to solve the problem which is through bilateral talking. It is the same like Japan who currently still keep asking Russia to return the northern four islands back to Japan. Russia occupied these four islands during World war II. (To be coninued…)

    A Chinese

    21 Feb 2005, 20:34

  190. A Chinese

    Regarding your assumption that Taiwan will be independent after Tibet and Xinjiang break away from China, I have to say you are only daydreaming here. China have already taken back Macao and Hong kong, two piece of Chinese land occupied by Portuguese and British through the unequal treaties in the past and we solved the problem through the peaceful talking. The next will be Taiwan, which was divided due to the civil war, and it will be united with the mainland eventually no matter what, this is because the people across the Taiwan straits are all Chinese, and German is an example here. If you think there is any chance that Tibet and Xinjiang will break away from China, keep on daydreaming it.

    Regarding the democracy which you show so much pride of it in India, I don't have anything against it, since this is your(India's) choice. By the same token, China has the rights to choose its own political system like my other Chinese fellows mentioned here before. But if the way to show off your pride for the democracy system implemented in India is to criticize Chinese policy system by comparing it with Hitler's fascist, then it will only make me doubt if you really have true confidence and pride with your so called democracy. As an case mentioned by many people in this blog for the demolishing slum, if the demolishing poor people from slum forcefully with no where to provide for them to live is something called democracy, then I have nothing to say here, but if it is in China, at least there will be a plan in place to settle down these people. You mentioned that you didn't delete some posts even though they are not farovorible, this is good because to me, it shows some kind of spirit of demorcacy, but I also noticed that you did delete some other links to some Chinese cities that some of my fellows had posted here before, are these links something you hate to see or don't want to see? That being said, as a saying goes – there is none so blind as those who do not wish to see, I really hope it is possible for you and you also wish to visit more Chinese cities and meet with more Chinese in future, and I am sure you will be welcomed. If that happens, you can make your own judgments based on what you will see with your own eyes.

    Cheers,
    A Chinese.

    21 Feb 2005, 20:38

  191. New Yorker

    Aruni,

    One thing I forgot to tell you: it is in fact not true that a Chinese citizen needs a permit to go to Shanghai, or any other cities within mainland China. You do need a permit to go to Hongkong and Macau though. As for Taiwan, it is the Taiwanese government that renders it almost impossible for the time being.

    Nobody cares about where you go as long as your bank account and your employer (if you do have one of course) are ok with it.

    21 Feb 2005, 20:39

  192. Hu ZhenYu

    Aruni, there is no need for your to go to Shanghai to find out what is wrong with India.

    Your problem is very clear, you talk too much and achieve too little.

    Democracy is good, but only the functioning one. Indian democracy cannot be considered as a functioning democracy. We Chinese are very skeptical about democracy; it is because country like India gives democracy a bad name. To call India, such a big mess country, the world’s biggest democracy is an insult to democracy itself.

    India should apologize for democracy, since India has given democracy a bad name.

    21 Feb 2005, 21:59

  193. New Yorker

    Aruni,

    Yours comments "..........about Indian serf mentality….......the more you argue the same, the worse it looks upon China because similar arguments can be forged for it too"

    First I want to tell you is it does not really matter what arguments will be forged for China, at lease I for one do not give it a shit. As I said, enough has been said of China, who cares ?! We still live the way we live, do things the way we do, and the country is getting better by the day. I am actually encouraging to forge more arguments about China, true or not, those arguments will at least tell me something about how a young Indian interlectual is thinking of China.

    All of my confidence comes solely from our way of thinking and doing, and not at all from today's economic success China is enjoying. And all the facts I cited about India and China have been used only to alert you that the Indian political system is not working as well as most of you think it is. As both you and I agree upon, China is still facing serious problems. The only difference is that China has demonstrated, through its economic success, that it is making TANGIBLE efforts to get things improved and the country advanced.

    I hereby want to assure you that I have no intention to attack the Indian Culture. Facts, however, need to be cited to support arguments, which otherwise would be rendered baseless and therefore meaningless.

    My last point, as I stated before, all comments about Indian mentalities are speculations. The modern science and technology has yet been able to provide anybody with any means to either see them or prove them right or wrong. THEY MAY NEVER BE PROVED.

    21 Feb 2005, 22:04

  194. stone Liu

    Is "democracy" really good?

    Democracy is almost a religion nowadays. Even Chinese fellows here had to say "Democracy is good, but…". Is democracy good? If what we concern about is improving people's living, there is no evidence support that assertion.

    You can say most of the advanced countries now are democratic, but most of the underdevelopped countries are also democratic, like most African countries, Latin-American countries, India, Indonesia, Philippines. You can say some of the poor countries are of dictatorship, like China, North Korea, but some rich countries are also of dictatorship, like some Arab oil-producing countries and Singapore without natural resources. So the current political geography does NOT support the claim that democracy promote economic growth.

    If you study the history of all those advanced countries nowadays, you would find that at the early stage of their development they were NOT demecratic. This fact can be observed on the history of all old powers in Europe and N-America, e.g. USA as a slave-holding country until 19th century in which women are NOT voteable until the beginning of the 20th century. This fact can also be observed in the development of the new economic powers like Japan, South Korea and Taiwan province of China. You can see that these countries and the province Taiwan got rich first, and then transformed their political systems to democracy, which implys that democracy is a possible consequence of a economic development, but NOT a prerequisite for it.

    Why? look at the origin of democracy. It's widely accepted that democracy originates from ancient slaveocracy, like states of ancient Greece. When the citizens have the slaves as a common enemy to suppress, a common resource to brutally exploit, the common interest they shared and the dangers they faced made them compromise to each other on political right. You can also observe this vividly in the USA in her slave-holding stage and the British empire when it colonized all around the world and slaved the native peoples.
    Nowadays, the situation is still the same. except that the slavery is made through economic and financial exploitation, not only brutal forces. If you observe all the countries with a "well functioning" democracy, you would find they all on the top of the industry chain of world so that can easily exploit fortune from countries on the lower end of the chain, e.g. China as a hardware producing slave and India a software coding one. The rich of living resources within those rich countries made the internal conflict relaxed, made them more likely to compromise on political right so that to focus on maintaining their advantageous position in the world.

    Since democracy is not a prerequisite of economic growth, is dictatorship? I know there is one place where dictatorship is a must for success, i.e. ARMY. Because of the obvious reason that dictatorship can make decisions efficiently and operate uniformly, which is critical in a war. you can also see that the ancient Greek states and Rome empire shift to dictatorship when facing serious war threat from outside. for the underdevelopped countries with the size of like China and India nowadays, to grow into another economic power means to re-distribute the world resources which is limitted in amount. This would NOT be done peacefully. This is a WAR, more or less. at this stage of development, a dictatorship seems more appropriate, at least for countries with size and diversity of China and India. and this claim has been proved by the development each of China and India up to now , adopting dictatorship and democracy respectively.
    ——-( to be continued)

    22 Feb 2005, 00:42

  195. stone Liu

    I should admit the political system of China currently is NOT pefect, though neither the political system of India. But Chinese will not copy democracy from the west, neither will we follow directions given by the west. we don't blindly trust any west advice, we trust only our practice. We are trying a new, unprecedented way to develop our economic and politics. This is not for Chinese people only, but for the future of all mankind.

    22 Feb 2005, 00:44

  196. New Yorker

    On Good Manner

    Manner by definition means the following:
    1.A way of doing something or the way in which a thing is done or happens.
    2.The socially correct way of acting.
    3.The prevailing customs, social conduct, and norms of a specific society, period, or group.
    4.Practice, style, execution, or method in the arts.
    1, 3 and 4 are in general neutral but context specifically could be good or bad. Only 2 is left to mean good manner —- socially correct way of acting. Then what is socially correct ? Cheating and lying and ignoring are definitely not. Good manner should be natural expression of the inner beauty of a person, which includes integrity, knowledge, sense of right and wrong, and braveness. And good manner must not be considered as mere politeness, tidiness and gentleness, which forge the outer image and could be found in even a bloodiest murder and war criminal such as the Japanese Emperor during WWII, who had luckily but unfairly managed to escape the punishment he deserved.
    By the way, the western culture put more emphasis on the outer image whereas the Chinese culture exerts on the inner beauty. Many examples of this can be found in literally every aspect of social life in the two different civilizations.
    I for one will definitely not call it good manner when facing a liar and coward that acts like an angel but has no sense of justice and does not have the bravery to do the right thing.

    22 Feb 2005, 02:14

  197. New Yorker

    To All,

    I am inviting you to take a careful look at Mr. Mauritius Yang's moronish comments addressed to me:

    "I am sorry that I didn’t notice that you come to debate in this forum not to contribute…..but to dominate over Indians and to express your frustration…."

    Answer: Tell you this, India is far from being so important as to stimulating my desire to dominate over or expressing frustration towards. I ran into this website and read thru the comments and could not help droping a few lines to show Indians what a real China is, that is all. On the contrary, your comments sounded like either you or your family was extremely frustrated with China —— your home land (if you really are Chinese, of course). I found a strong hatred for China between your lines, which were written in good "manner". You called it "perfectly noble pursue" Nehru's ambitions for and India's invasion into Chinese territory, and you even shamelessly exclaimed that you were ok with it if China was willing to cede some land to India in exchange for their return of good will. What a moron you are I would like to say, your IQ must be barely above zero ! I could not find better words to express my disgust towards you in a better "manner"!

    "Your frustration which leads you to behave so hot-blooded is exactly that part of human nature which was artfully utilised by Hitler …....your exclamations like “we Chinese have inexhaustible passion…..” sounds very Hitlerian, like “We Aryans shall dominate the world…”. Come on, what era we are now?

    Answer: We are in an era when gold medalists ran around the stadium carrying their national flags and chanting, yelling, waving, tearing ! and in front of the whole world ! I know you would call this "hitlerian" and "rude" and "in poor manner".

    "Every country has more or less some trouble at home, Mumbai mayor has to clean the slum as a step to progress…......Don’t laugh at Indians, we have our own equally stupid troubles, too."

    Answer: True—-we have our own equally stupid troubles, too ! But we provided people housing before asking them to move out and Mubai government did no more than just "demolishing"!

    "I cannot prevent you from “applaud loudly my compatriots' passion !”, I would suggest you not to vent it out in front of people of other countries ….Such action would only let people find you aggressive and badly cultivated…."

    Answer: I would rather suggest you to say this in front of the athelets from the whole world in the next Olypic Games 0f 2008 in Beijing ! And I am sure you would be thrown out of the stadium like a moron !!!

    "Nice manner of expression of own view….. is generally viewed as friendly debate, whereas bad manners can only be termed as rude."

    Answer: I hereby suggest you keep your "nice manner" but stop expressing your "own view" that is full of stupid shit !!!

    "Sadly to notice that such blind heated patriotism is now rampant in China. Youngsters …do not lack knowledge, but …lack cultivation in refine humanity….wonder how people educated under such circumstance can honour their own country …"

    Answer: First, people like you will definitely not be able to honour thier own country because it will not take long for them to cede all of their land to foreign countries !!!

    "And this blind and lunatic “patriotism” is in fact most dangerous and most worrisome for leaders of a country…......Numerous Chinese historical events show devastation that this false patriotism can bring"

    Answer: You just showed one more time your stupid ignorance of the Chinese history, thoughout which a lack of national patriotism and agressivity is evident and that has attracted so many babarian nations to invade China.

    "Mr. New Yorker, and alike, writes good English, but apparently didn’t learn even a piece in English good manner and politeness.

    Answer: I am refering you to my above comments on good manner (post#197).

    22 Feb 2005, 16:47

  198. A Chinese

    If you do not have a job, you are not allowed to go into Shanghai. Did you hear something to the contrary?

    I very much doubt your argument about Chinese patience. Arunachal has been with us since the 19th century, Sikkim returned in the 1970s. CCP however decided to acknowledge Sikkim to be integral part of India. You are treading a dangerous position by declaring that China will never agree that Arunachal is a part of India, because unlike me you have no say in what your government does. So you will be all red eared when CCP backs down.

    If you’re saying China was not occupied before the 19th century, then you’re factually misplaced. The Mongols conquered and ruled China for a long time and the Manchus ruled China for since the late 17th century. If you’re claiming that they were assimilated into the ‘Chinese mainstream’ (a very abstract and static concept), then so were the Turks and Mughals who came to India.

    You did not get my arguments about Taiwan, Turkistan or Tibet. I do not give two hoots to any of these countries (although I do have sympathy towards Tibetan Buddhism). I was merely ridiculing Hu Zhen Yu’s comment that north India wanted to break away from India. Any understanding of the sub-continent would not have invoked such an statement.

    Hu Zhen Yu

    What is a ‘functioning democracy’- a place where the choices of the people are reflected in the government and people can hold their representatives accountable. If Indian democracy would not have been functioning, BJP would have not lost the 2004 election. Pick up any politics textbook and go to the FAQ section. Here is an example- ‘Which is the planet’s largest democracy?- India’.

    Most of the sane world disagrees with your comment. Every political system has its problems, and what you’re doing is trying to cover up China’s by accusing India. What a lame trick!

    New Yorker

    No one more than an Indian knows that his political system is flawed, or that his country has never utilised its true potential. It hurt very much to see India like this until the 1990s, but now the situation is changing, albeit painfully slowly. China has done a much better job overall.

    You wanted my perception about China. Here it is-

    China was one of the world’s poorest and most troubled areas after the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution. From there to reach the stage it has today owes a lot to great leadership of Deng Xiaoping and the perseverance of the Chinese people. Hats off to the Chinese people for their achievements, and the best days are yet to come.

    China faces problems of inequality, instability in its financial sector, political intervention in economy, lack of freedom, state owned enterprises, malpractice in accounting. But it’s a dynamic society and I hope it overcomes its issues. The biggest problem in China I feel is the nature of the regime, which by itself is an aggressive one. Unless the CCP manages to isolate China in the world and land it within trouble with the rest of the world, I see a bright future for the world’s most populous country.

    Stone Liu

    You are factually misplaced about democracies. The world’s poorest countries have either authoritarian governments, or governments based on religion or banana republics. Almost none of them have functioning democracies.

    Chinese economic/political model is not unprecedented. It has been done to an extent in Singapore and South Korea. It borrows some from traditional authoritarian literature mixed with a dose of free market economics albeit laden with socialist fervour in certain areas. Neither is Indian democracy ‘copied’. It is very much catered to the needs of the diverse masses of India. Historically speaking, long before Plato defined democracy as demos + kratos, the Indus Valley Civilisation was a merchant republic.

    23 Feb 2005, 11:57

  199. stone Liu

    "The world’s poorest countries have either authoritarian governments, or governments based on religion or banana republics. Almost none of them have functioning democracies". —-Aruni

    Aruni, then do you think one of the poorest countries, namely India, has a functioning democracy?

    "Chinese economic/political model is not unprecedented. It has been done to an extent in Singapore and South Korea " —- Aruni

    Come on, Aruni, are Singapore and South Korea comparable with China on size and diversity? Are they communist countries at the beginning? Are they enemies of USA and blockaded by the whole westen world?

    23 Feb 2005, 13:13

  200. Stone Liu

    Don't gloat too much- China is not too better off than India. In any case, it is unfair to class China and India with banana republics because of their massive population with all the natural implications for GDP per capita. Also, purchasing power wise India and China are not too bad anyway.

    On a general scale, most of the world's poorest countries are not democracies.

    So what if Singapore and South Korea have faced different circumstances? I don't see your point. Their basic model is the same- authoritarian capitalism.

    23 Feb 2005, 14:03

  201. New Yorker

    Aruni,

    A few things.

    1) Permission to go to Shanghai —————— bullshit !!!

    2) China was one of the poorest countries after the Great Leap Forward and Cultureal Revolution ——- depending on where you draw the line. The country was much worse off afterwards, that I concede. But still, it was worth it for the change of people's mentality as I mentioned before. With a malfunctioning democracy, I do not see too good of a chance for India to be able to do it successfully. Or maybe you guys think you do not need to do that——your choice absolutely.

    3) Let me name the poorest country in Asia, which is also a democracy —— Bengladesh. Believe it or not, like it or not, it is just plain truth.

    23 Feb 2005, 15:16

  202. Bangladesh is not a functioning democracy, it is a banana republic dominated by religious fanatics. Ask anyone from the sub-continent and he/she would say the same.

    I cannot comment on how far the GLF or CR changed the mindset of the Chinese people (because I am not Chinese and cannot feel it like you guys), but I will say that one of the most important decisions Deng ever took was to shun Maoist economic policies that would surely have led to China's implosion. Unfortunately for India, when China was reforming its economy, we are loading further socialist garbage on ours.

    23 Feb 2005, 15:38

  203. stone Liu

    On the topic of suitable political system for large and under-developped countries like China and India, I have speaked out all my thoughts. I'm not expecting you totally agree with me. what I hope is that my words can open a small window on your mind, which is already saturated by western propaganda and myth.

    I find an english article on the same topic but has more concrete examples:
    "Democracy In The Third World— The Second Most Destructive Egalitarian Myth" at this link:
    link
    The major content of the article is:
    —How Individuals Rise From Poverty.
    —Democracy—Where It May Be Socially Viable & Where It Obviously Is Not.
    —How Democracy & Egalitarian Notions Stifle Excellence and Increase Dependence In Poor Countries.
    —President Clinton & An Atrocity In Haiti.

    23 Feb 2005, 16:11

  204. New Yorker

    Aruni,

    The way you talk about democracy is like shooting a moving target. Tell me how you define the democracy.

    23 Feb 2005, 16:21

  205. New Yorker

    Stone Liu

    Thanks a lot for posting the link, it is very informative and I can not agree more upon what it says.

    I think India lacks all of the listed prerequisites for an authentic and functioning democracy, and so does China.

    But India just plunged right into it without even a good look around, whereas China is still working hard in the general direction of meeting those prerequisites.

    23 Feb 2005, 17:26

  206. Mauritius Yang

    N. Yorker: Tell you this, India is far from being so important as to
    stimulating my desire to dominate over or expressing frustration towards. I
    ran into this website and read thru the comments and could not help droping
    a few lines to show Indians what a real China is, that is all. On the
    contrary, your comments sounded like either you or your family was
    extremely frustrated with China —— your home land (if you really are
    Chinese, of course). I found a strong hatred for China between your lines,
    which were written in good "manner". You called it "perfectly noble pursue"
    Nehru's ambitions for and India's invasion into Chinese territory, and you
    even shamelessly exclaimed that you were ok with it if China was willing to
    cede some land to India in exchange for their return of good will. What a
    moron you are I would like to say, your IQ must be barely above zero ! I
    could not find better words to express my disgust towards you in a better
    "manner"!

    Yang: China has been my beloved homeland since I was born, no need to
    prove it to anybody, it is so. Curious to notice that you do not regard
    India important enough to arose your interest adn yet you are still here in
    this blog trying to impose your view on China onto an Indian student who is
    just preparing to visit our country.
    Nehru, as a politician like all other politicians in this world, do have
    desire to extend his influence beyond his territory. So did he, so did
    others, eg Mao and Liu Shaoqi did try to export Chinese revolution to
    Indonesia (backfired later on), western colonialists on their respective
    colonies and American, well, on everywhere. Just that all of them try to
    paint their actions with nice colours. This is a rule in a game called
    politics, a competition between politicians, just a phenomenon, neither
    good nor bad.

    ".... I could not find better words to express my disgust towards you in a
    better "manner"!" thank you very much for your confession on your not that
    good manner. You know well that there are better words available to be used
    in order to be in good manner, please make effort to use these words rather
    than Fxxx/shit/moron/ etc.

    N. Yorker: We are in an era when gold medalists ran around the stadium
    carrying their national flags and chanting, yelling, waving, tearing ! and
    in front of the whole world ! I know you would call this "hitlerian" and
    "rude" and "in poor manner".

    Yang: It is perfectly OK for what we see on TV, all winners are to be
    applauded by ALL for their HUMAN achievement. Only that if, after match,
    the winner comes to waive his fists and shout in front of loser and his
    supporters, well, this is badly mannered and provocative and it is against
    saint sportsmanship. This is exactly what I am against, we Chinese won lots
    of gold medals, everybody knows that and other peoples are congratulating
    us on this achievement, Indians also watched Olympic games on TV, no need
    to tell them repeatedly this fact, and stressing that fact that India won
    so few.

    See things from another angle: we China did not win 20% of all medals yet
    our population is 20% strong in world population. And a Mauritian athlet
    called Stephan Buckland came out 5th in 200m, and Mauritius is a country of
    only 1 milion people !!! A huge China can produce only Liu Xiang (may be a
    few more, I don't recall) who can run faster than Stephan Buckland from
    tiny Mauritius. I don't think this is a pride for Chinese people, we
    Chinese people are still far from being a really sportive country and
    people. Therefore, I would rather suggest that we better try hard to make
    all 1 milion peole villages/districts in China to produce at least a 5th in
    the world, rather than showing muscles to our friends of otehr countries.

    23 Feb 2005, 20:39

  207. Mauritius Yang

    N. Yorker: True—-we have our own equally stupid troubles, too ! But we
    provided people housing before asking them to move out and Mubai government
    did no more than just "demolishing"!

    Yang: This must be one of the stupidities made by Indian government
    officials, of similar nature to irregularities during relocation of
    millions of people in Three Gorge Dam region in China. No need to
    generalise this kind of administrative mistake. Mumbai mayor cannot
    represent whole Indian people, nor can corrupted Chinese officials
    represent whole millions of Chinese government officials. Only that we
    hardly read any positive reports on well done jobs by Indian government
    officials in India, this is the way western (and Indian) news reporting is
    being done. We Chinese people should not fall into this trap by reading only
    negative reports and yet trying to understand our big and hugely
    diversified neighbour India.

    N.Yorker: I would rather suggest you to say this in front of the athelets
    from the whole world in the next Olympic Games 0f 2008 in Beijing ! And I am
    sure you would be thrown out of the stadium like a moron !!!

    Yang: Surely I won't do that, for my own safety among hot blooded
    sports fan turned ultra nationalists. Chinese youths are becoming more and
    more lunatic, and real sportsmanship is in a shatter in China. Notorious
    football black whistles, unfriendly ooouuuus to Japanese football team,
    some years ago Chinese spectators even threw bottles to Hong Kong football
    team who won against China national team (luckily the incident swiftly
    dealt with by Chinese government). All these are not helping to make
    Chinese sports real sports, and sports are not helping Chinese people to
    become a better people. I strongly feel present day Chinese people prefer
    winning gold medals and enjoying the fact (true, the very fact) that so
    many other nations are not getting as many medals as we do, rather than
    studying how to become a better man through sports. This is not
    sportsmanship. To me, a real sportsmanship is that people from all
    backgrounds (race, nation…) praise winners, encourage losers, welcome all
    participants and encourage ourselves to be better than we are now both on health and mentality.
    Sadly to notice that Mr. New Yorker is praising ONLY Chinese winners, is
    pinning down losers and is suggesting to keep me away from stadium by
    throwing me out. I think many Chinese youth do have same or similar
    mentality as Mr. New Yorker has. If this is REALLY so, I would be ashamed
    by Chinese sports, as our friends from other part of the world would feel
    being harassed and would feel China not welcoming. I definitely will not go
    to Beijing 2008 IF what is expected to see are those who will hang gold
    medals to their neck by themselves and still waving hands to CHINESE
    spectators only, as no other people who feel harassed is coming to
    participate.

    N.Yorker: I hereby suggest you keep your "nice manner" but stop expressing
    your "own view" that is full of stupid shit !!!
    Yang: This is what called Hitlerian expression. If I shut up, you will
    not be able to see my share of views on, say, Chinese sports above. And if
    I tell you to shut up, I will not be able to see how Chinese ultra
    nationalists feelings are rampant and dangerous, and need to deal with.

    N.Yorker: First, people like you will definitely not be able to honour thier
    own country because it will not take long for them to cede all of their
    land to foreign countries !!!
    Yang: That is a simplistic generalisation and extrapolation of my
    view, I didn't say that i would suggest ceding whole China to somebody
    else.

    23 Feb 2005, 20:40

  208. Mauritius Yang

    N.Yorker: You just showed one more time your stupid ignorance of the
    Chinese history, thoughout which a lack of national patriotism and
    agressivity is evident and that has attracted so many babarian nations to
    invade China.

    Yang: Partially agree with you that lack of patriotism was one of the
    factors that contributed to multiple invasions from western powers (and
    worst of all: from east) in our contemporary history. I feel shame, as much
    as you do, to read 6,000 British soldiers, and others, in battleships,
    could come straight to Beijing to burn down our Yuan Ming Garden, a couple
    of Japanese soldiers could go straight chopping hundreds of villagers'
    heads off without anybody picking up a stick to fight back. These are our
    historical shames that we need to wash (in Korean war we washed a lot of
    these shames, salute to our brave soldiers!). What we should NOT do is the
    way of washing shame as Jews do onto Palestinians. Jewish people suffered a
    lot under Hitler (I would believe they suffered much more than we Chinese
    did, they didn't even have a piece of land for 2,000 years) and they feel
    much more shame than we do (millions cooked/gased/laboured to dead,
    practically no real and large scale resistance !!!). And now they are doing
    the same to Palestinians.

    My understanding on Israelo-Palestinian feud: Israel state established, Ben
    Gouion proposed to Arabs peaceful settlement on border issues, blatantly
    refused by Arabs and they launched 1st war against Israel, Israel fought
    back and occupied even more land, later Israel became militarily stronger,

    mentality reigns among Israelis and they go on killing
    more and more Palestinians, till date. Thus never ending conflicts between
    the 2 peoples.

    What I wish to avoid is exactly this kind of settlement of conflicting
    claims. Israelis did not allow chance to Arabs to cool down and to accept living side by side with each other, they simply adopted strategy. With our neighbour Indians, our leaders were on good track while being militarily polite to them during 1962 war, they did not wish to create an enemy.

    The way Indians are being addressed in this blog is really worrisome, all languages used, fact revealed lead to make our Indian friends feel that Chinese people hate Indians and would treat them like Israelis treat Palestinians as we are now strong and powerful. Well, if this is really what you guys wanted, I would advise you to get your kids (if you have) learning right now how to hide in shelters when Indian made nuclear bombs or human bombs are coming.

    In no case arosing hatred is a good thing. There are border disputes, true. These kinds of disputes would need many years and lots of political wisedom to settle correctly. Both governments, especially Chinese government, are under tremendous ultra nationalistic pressure because of the mutually arosed hostile feeling between 2 peoples. Let our diplomats do the job, if they need 100 years to negotiate, just let them talk to each other for 100 years. In the mean time, I don’t thing Chinese people would like to live richly but constantly under shadow of being hated by somebody, like present day Israelis.

    Present Chinese government and Chinese people are having a golden opportunity to create another way of development other than western style rob-to-get-rich method. We are trying to rise peacefully, and we are to build harmonious society. It would be treaterous to create border trouble for China during this golden age.

    23 Feb 2005, 20:42

  209. Mauritius Yang

    Therefore, Mr. N.Yorker and alike, please don’t use fxxx/shit/… words, you never know what Aruni would become (Prime Minister of India? Or Defense Minister?), and what he will make his sons to believe Chinese people are like. Simply tell Aruni that no certificate needed to live in Shanghai, instead of describing what he misunderstood from his friends on Shanghai as shit !

    When Mahadir of Malaysia went to Singapore University for studies, he was verbally abused by a Singaporean cab driver, making his impression on Chinese people very bad. Thus his later on policies to contain/suppress Chinese people in Malaysia. Even after nearly 50 years, Mahadir cannot forget this humiliation and cited this story in his autography. Try to learn something from this.

    23 Feb 2005, 20:43

  210. New Yorker

    Mr Yang,

    I don't feel like continuing to waste my time talking back and forth with you. We are not talking the same language.

    I would rather talk with Aruni, I think that is much more productive.

    My last advice for you: do not be so naïve, and simply apply whatever you learn from your textbook to the real world is a silly thing to do. You will learn that when you grow up. I do appreciate your lengthy write-up, which has shown me or taught me a lesson that in this real world there do be people like you.

    23 Feb 2005, 21:34

  211. Mauritius Yang

    To Aruni>>
    On permits to live in Shanghai:
    may be we can stop discussion on this tiny issue. Shanghai demands no permits from people who want to settle there, just go and try to make a living there. But if one sleeps on street/under bridge at night, the policemen or neighbourhood securities will collect him. This is simply a municipal administrative issue. Mumbai municipal officials were performing same duty a bit too harsh while Shanghai officials are more successful on this problem.

    On democracy:
    I believe democracy is merely a tool to achieve same goal as an authoritarian governmetn does: to develop a country economically as well as socially. One thing to note is that no democracy is performing well in a country if the country is not either a resource rich country or a great exploiter/ex colonialist. Example, US/UK/France/Scandinavia are all doign well with their democracy, but they are all either resource rich or ex colonialist who make other people work for them (eg black slaves and Indian for UK). In all other countries like in Afgrica, democratisation has been a disarster for them. It is a luxuary that these people cannot consume. Free will of people in Rwanda once released created an unbelievable modern day Holocaust/Naking massacre. It was unchecked free will of Tutsi people to eliminate Hutu, and vice versa. While democracy provides sense of participation for mass, authoritarian government provides best efficiency in resource allocation. The key issue in choosign democracy or authoritaran is what one country can afford to. Resourceful countries can go for democracy without sacrificing too much on living standard as inefficiency of democracy can be covered up by available resources, while countries which started in bad shape cannot affrod for democracy as authority in government can utilise available resource to keep people SURVIVE only. This is the case for China, we needed survival before any other thing when People's Republic started (destructions by anti-Japanese war and civil war, clear and present danger of invasion of American from Taiwan/Korea/Japan, subsequent possible invasion from USSR, natural calamities…..)

    Another case of malfunctioning democracy is Madagascar just near Mauritius. People over there watched so much French TV that one day in 2002 thay started to ask government for 35 hr/week working hours, same as in France while Madagascar is one of the poorest in the world! This request has been ridiculated in region for years. Well, this is peole's will. Who do you think will do a better job in this country, a Maoist or a democrate?

    23 Feb 2005, 22:48

  212. stone Liu

    Yang,
    You said Chinese youth "extreme nationalism" is alarming, or something like. I think you are 杞人忧天ing.
    Chinese "extreme nationalism" is far below the average level of other nations. During the war of 1962, hundreds of Chinese in New Delhi were put in jail, Chinese shops on street were burn and robbed by Indian youth. thousands of Chinese in India were droven back to China with all their fortune took away by Indian police. Did similiar scenarios happen on Indians lived in China at that time? Arabian Americans got shot in USA after 911, but are there any white individual get even abused on Chinese street after US spy plane hit down Chinese fighter near Chinese coast? Chinese may be the most peaceful, torlerant and calm people on this earth. If we find there finally emerged some extreme nationalist in China, we should rather be happy for it. They are a neccessary balancing power, to balance people like you who are over-peaceful hence naive.

    You said Malaysian PM Mahadir applys policy against Chinese in Malaysia because he was abused by a Singaporean cab driver 50 years ago. No one but you believe that. Mahadir is a smart politician, he is wise enough not to based his national policy on his personal likes or dislikes. If he did mention that story, that's just an clumsy excuse of his anti-Chinese policy. You may be a kind person but don't limit your thought on a superficial level.

    23 Feb 2005, 22:49

  213. Mauritius Yang

    I am affraid that I have to agree with most of my Chinese friends' comment on Indian democracy, which is that it is preventing India from getting better. Apparently Indian voters are praised by politicians only just before election. After that, thier attention is switched to trading their power in hand with businesses like Tata/Reliance etc. And the fact that country is still ruled by British educated elites is a bad sign. British educated Indian elites may well be very nationalistic, like Nehru, but they are leading British life style, and most of them find mornig tea with biscuits better than pure milk fresh from cow. I think Chinese people can trust more their carpenter Parliament president than saree dressed Indian people can trust those leaders in suits and ties. Western style democratic system does not allow a carpenter to become Parliament president, simply he has no fund to campagn and he needs pressure groups or interest groups like Tata/Reliance or Indian mafia to make him VISIBLE and AVAILABLE for votes. Whereas in China, we trust that Deng was picking the best one to suceed him, we general people have no way to know which one is the best one, election campagn will make selection process looked like a showbiz just like in US, Deng knew best men who worked under him, his choice should be the best choice possible.

    Another argument on choice of political system. Indian political system was practically a copy/paste case from British. The fact that UK and western world has always been praising India for being democratic is a deadly trap according to me. Western world, particularly UK, robbed a lot from India, they are supposed to pay back the debts. By keeping India democratic, India still feels in same democratic family as UK, thus practically exonerating UK of its historical debt to India. In this sense, India can hardly have any chance to become better than UK, as India's soul (its political system) is defined by British. The brightest people of India will still go to UK to be trained so as to go back to India to rule in British way.

    Make no mistake, I don't hate individual British, most of them are polite and friendly people, only that UK as a country is not an example to follow by the world. This country enslaved millions of black people to become rich and powerful, there is no green people or blue people for countries like India and China to enslave to become rich and powerful. We have to look for other means. Recently China annouces its Raise Peacefully strategy, this is a good alternative worth trying. Would be glad to learn India to propose its own version of development suitable for Indian circumstances and particularities.

    23 Feb 2005, 22:51

  214. Mauritius Yang

    Stone Liu,

    You have a point on differences between us and other peoples in peace and harmony. Our PM even sent all japanese colonists back to jp without a scratch, who can do better than us? Chinese bandits can do aweful things to Chinese themselves, but Chinese people use to treat foreigners much more than friendly. I however don't agree with some of us who use Fxxx/shit…. against Aruni in his own blog, this reflects how our daily expression method lags behind our real feeling. We China people are now use to abuse friends on language with bad words in order to show how good friends we are. This is a bad habit. Aruni is coming to our place, we simply welcome him, he will see what he needs to see, and there is no need to abuse him and downgrade his country to that extend to satisfy ourselves.

    Agree with you that Mahadir cannot adopt national policies with own like or dislike. I know that but I didn't touch that piece. I would rather believe that that sg cab driver is the last straw which breaks camel's back. In fact, Mahadir is a great friend and a grreat admirer of China, only that Malaysian Chinese are too good that their successes are becoming a threat to native Malais and therefore need to be kept in control, for better social order.

    New Yorker: At least this time you are not fxxxing or shxxxing, congratulations on your improvement. If one day you be praised by someone for good manner, pls do think of me.

    Close on talking of manners, hope everybody can now start sharing what he really thinks on specific materials of interest rather than getting distracted by inapproapriate words. .

    23 Feb 2005, 23:45

  215. New Yorker

    I do not give it a shit to the fucked-up british style manner——-the manner of the first ever drug smuggling state/nation of the entire human history ??? Do you think I am extreme nationalist ? So what !!! One day, I strongly believe, WE CHINESE will fuck up the whole country of GB the way a cat killing a mouse !!! And this strong beliefe has been deeply rooted in my blood, my soul !!!

    Justice will be served eventually !

    Keep on daydreaming about changing my thoughts and "manner". We Chinese are the best of the world !!! Call me whatever you would like ! Who cares !!! Can you stop the steps of China marching ? Not a fucking chance, absolutley not !!!

    24 Feb 2005, 00:31

  216. New Yorker

    Told you guys OUR CHINESE CULTURE is saturated with the ultimate wisdom, and we will be taking on anybody who is willing or driven to be an enemy of our homeland ! Simply because the nation has in its possesion people like Hu ZhenYu, Stone Liu and me !!!

    24 Feb 2005, 01:16

  217. New Yorker

    A functioning democracy is a society where the views of the majority are reflected in the government, which in turn is held accountable by the people. There are glitches to greater or lesser degree in most democracies, but exceptions do not prove the rule as far as the critics of democracis are concerned.

    I think you are being naïve if you claim that India chose democracy without ‘looking around’. In fact, there was a lot of deliberation among Congress on the exact type of government India would adopt after independence. Indeed, India was unique among all the countries that fought for independence from the Europeans in that it maintained a stable representative society, unlike banana republics in Africa and the sub-continent.

    I have no doubt in your patriotism and indeed I admire it and share the same sentiments for my country, but your applaud of Hu Zhen Yu is extremely disturbing. Do you mean to say that the only way you can show the world how good China is doing is by abusing others racially and culturally?

    From your comments, you do not come across as such a person. I hope I don’t have to change my mind.

    Mauritus Yang

    You and New Yorker are more than welcome to carry on your debate on my blog. Also note that I hardly take offence to slurs because I know it is all in the heat of the moment and not personal. I do not judge people based on their comments on a web page. But thanks for your concern anyway.

    One point about democracy- I agree that in an ideal world, the aim of any type of government would be the same. However, in the real world the difference is that in an authoritarian state the citizens have to simply ‘trust’ their rulers while in a democracy they can ask questions and even threaten to depose the government.

    You are giving the UK far too less credit. By and large it was the least of all of the evils. The French, the Dutch, the Belgians, the Germans and the Americans treated their colonies far worse than the British ever did. Speaking about racism, continental European countries are far less tolerant towards coloured people than Britain is.

    24 Feb 2005, 11:17

  218. Hu ZhenYu

    Hi New Yorker;

    Nice to meet you, I am from Shanghai, from Jiao Tong University.
    I live in Pudong. Do you know Ju Yuan, Very near the river.

    Where are you? Maybe we can meet some time?

    24 Feb 2005, 13:35

  219. A Chinese

    Hi Aruni:

    If I don't have a job in Shanghai, I am still allowed to go to Shanghai freely, that's not a problem at all. Chinese people do not need any special pass as you said to go to Shanghai, that is the fact. Let's drop this topic, no need to further discuss on this. If you are still skeptical, just visit there and do an investigation by yourself.

    Regarding your comments: "...unlike me you have no say in what your government does and blah blah…", and here is what my comments comes: I don't want to dig too much here to explain to you how the democracy works in China, all I want to say to you that China is now building its democracy in its own way, and ordinary Chinese people now actually have a say in many issues which determines the Government's decisions. For example in many Chinese Cities, there are many so called: 'Mayor hotline', and you can talk to the Mayor or Mayor's office directly. To your surprise, we have elections hold in the local area and we also have people's national congress in the top level whose representives are elected in local area and they are entitled to speak out the will of ordinary Chinese people. Although on going course of democracy in China may not be perfect at this moment, but the direction the China is taking right now is right. That being said, the question I want to ask you here is: do you or the Indian people really have a say in what your government does? Do the slum dwellers in Mumbai have a say to what your government does to them? if your answer is yes, then how come these slum people become homeless after their homes and the neighborhood were pulled down? I am very surprised to hear the guy from Mumbai municipality to say that:" We want to put the fear of the consequences of migration into these people. We have to restrain them from coming to Mumbai ", is this something called democracy? that sounds more like authorization. If that guy is from Shanghai municipality who said the same words, he will be long gone (removed from his position). Therefore, I doubt your so called democracy really works in India, and also let's suppose if you are one of these slum dwellers in Mumbai, I believe you will provide every one here with a totally different point of view in regards to your democracy. (To be Continued…)

    24 Feb 2005, 14:19

  220. A Chinese

    Regarding your comments: "... Arunarchal has been with us since 19 centuries", my question is: the "us" here refers to who? India or her British's master? Again as I said before, your claim has no basis. The fact of matter is that the entire state of Arunachal Pradesh is a Chinese territory which was currently illegally occupied by India, and there is no doubt about it! China has the old record of map and the boundary drawn.At certain locations the boundary stones inscribed with Chinese characters indicating the border with India.This boundary is known as the traditional boundary of China.The eastern sector of this traditional customary boundary runs along the southern foot of the Himalayas, the middle sector along the Himalayas, and the western sector along the Karakoram range. This traditional boundary was not only respected by China and India over a long period of time, but also reflected in early official British maps. Before 1685, the delineation of the western sector of the Sino-Indian boundary in official British maps coincided roughly with the traditional line, and before 1936 so did the eastern sector. But from the second half of the 19th century to the beginning of the 20th, British imperialism was actively engaged in conspiratorial activities of aggression against China's Tibet and Sinkiang provinces. Various attempts were made to obliterate the traditional boundary line, carve up China's territory, and expand the territory of British India. At the Simla Conference in 1914, the British representative drew the notorious "McMahon Line" through a secret exchange of letters with the representative of the Tibetan local authorities, attempting thereby to annex 90,000 square kilometres of Chinese territory. In the western sector, British imperialism laid covetous eyes on Aksai Chin in the 1860s by sending military intelligence agents to infiltrate into the area for unlawful surveys and working out an assortment of boundary lines. Keep in mind, China did not recognise the illegal McMahon Line yesterday; it does not recognise the illegal McMahon Line today, nor will it recognise the illegal McMahon line tomorrow. Please don't just read the story from India's test book, take a peek of the view of outside, especially the view from China.
    Regarding your another comments: "...CCP however decide to acknowledge the Sikkim to be the integral part of India", again I don't agree with you on this because again this is another claim with no basis. Based on my researching on this, China still hold her line that China does not recognise India's illegal annexation of Sikkim. If you have facts to support your claim here, please provided. (To be Continued…)

    24 Feb 2005, 14:21

  221. A Chinese

    OK, now let's move on to your last comments that China had been conquered by Mongols and Manchus for a long time in the history. This shows that your history knowledge about China is very limited, and you don't know the Mangols and Manchus are actually called Chinese. But this is OK because you are not Chinese. I am not an scholar whose major is Chinese history. But if you are interested in the Chinese history ranging from Yang Dynasty, Ming Dynasty, to Qing Dynasty, then I would more than happy to tell the stories about these three Dynasty. Do you know that about most of Mongolian now living in China's Inner Mongolia province? The outer Mongolia used to belong to China, but Russia conned Roc out of it back in the 1930s. Do you know a NBA player from China who is actually a Mongolian (from Inner Mongolia province)? Do you know in China, besides han, there are more than 55 minorities, and Mongols and Manchus are just two of them? Do you know Genghis Khan is also considered as Chinese by Chinese people? When Genghis Khan was young, what he called the mid land at that time was divided by two Dynasties, Kin Dynasty and South Soog Dynasty. Kin controlled the north (currently the middle and northern part of current China), South Song controlled south(the southern part of current China). When Genghis Khan was young, his tribe controlled the western area (Mongolian plain) of Kin Dynasty. but they were ruled by Kin Dynasty at that time, and have to offer Jin tributes every years. After he grown up, he was proclaimed as Genghis Khan by a subjugated tribes. Then after many years of War and unendless fighting, he defeated Kin, Xi Xia, Khoresm, a vast Turkish empire that included modern Iraq, Iran, and part of Western Turkistan and also Russia and plundered the region between the Volga and Dnepr rivers and from the Persian Gulf almost to the Arctic Ocean. Later on his grandson defeat South Song, and united the whole China again and called it Yuan Dynasty. Yuan Dynasty dominated the world’s largest empire in the human history, stretching at its greatest extent from Korea to Hungary, Russia and its capital is called "Da Du" which is the current Beijing. As to Manchus, they are 100% Chinese too, if you visit northern China where most of Manchus are living, and you can ask this question if they are Chinese? and they will be surprised that you ask such question and the answer will be yes in Mandarin.

    Cheers,
    A Chinese.

    24 Feb 2005, 14:23

  222. A Chinese

    You are making the same mistake as some others on my blog. The slums that are currently being uprooted are those which are encroaching on public property. Private property is one of the fundamentals of any functioning democracy and therefore a large number of legal slums cannot be uprooted without the consent of the owners.

    Regarding Sikkim, in October 2003 the Chinese Foreign Ministry officially recognised it to be an integral part of India. All the official maps thereafter have been changed by Beijing.

    As far as Arunachal is concerned, you are giving in to the age old disease in Chinese mentality. According to the Chinese, whatever that once could have belonged to them remotely is for theirs to keep in perpetuity for eternity. That is not how real life works, otherwise Japan would own Manchuria to this day, or Ulan Batur would be the capital of China (as Mongols ruled it for so long). If you fail to recognise the McMahon line, then there is no way we can recognise the Qing empire. If you say that no non-Asian empires are recognised, then please note that the land between Iran and Indonesia was at some point or the other owned by the Mughal Empire or the Hindu empires before that.

    Now that is not how real life works. In the real world, borders are ever changing. I request you not to strongly oppose Arunachal as part of India because in 3–4 years when PRC quietly gives up, you will be left red faced.

    Regarding Manchus and Mongols, if they were so Chinese then why were there movements in the 19th century to try and replace the ‘foreign’ Manchus with the erstwhile ‘native’ Ming? There was a distinct opposition in Chinese society to accommodate these rulers of China. In any case, the more you argue for their assimiliation the more weak your case becomes. For then, the Mughals and Turks are by the same standard Indian and your argument about ‘enslaved’ India bites the dust.

    24 Feb 2005, 15:47

  223. New Yorker

    Hu ZhenYu

    Nice to meet you too. I am actually living and working in New York. I went back to China to visit some of my family and friends there, and I also spent a couple of days in Shanghai, which I like a lot.

    I am sure we can see each other some time in the future. Thanks.

    Aruni,

    I am re-assuring you, for one more time, that it is simply not my intention to attack or abuse any other nations and cultures. I applaud Hu ZhenYu's patriotism not the racist part in some of his comments, as I said in one of my previous postings. I do enjoy discussion with you although we have different opinions on some of the issues brought up here. My perception of India and the people is that it is a large country and an intelligent people; just that the culture is a little bit too shadowed by the British reign, which can be seen in the way some Indians such as you think of and do things.

    We are showing our strong patriotism here not to "abuse you racially or culturally", just like in Olympic Games those gold medalists wave their national flags and fists in front of the audience from other nations, which technically all are losers in that specific game because they did not win the gold medal, not to abuse them culturally and racially.

    If you know enough of the Chinese history, you would have agreed with some of those Western scholars who did intensive study on the Chinese culture in 1600s and 1700s and who pretty much reached the consensus that apart from an obvious lack of patriotism/nationalism, the culture itself is almost flawless.

    And this lack of patriotism/nationalism has costed China more than just pain or humiliation, it has costed the country a sea of blood and mountain of wealth in the past. Yet you have rarely heard of any abusing or torturing expatriates of another nation within China even when the latter was at a vicious war with the former. After the 1962 Sino-India war, we sent all of the Indian POWs, treated in human ways by all means, back to India; and more than that, even their weapons were hand-cleaned and then returned too. This compared to 40+ years of jail time served by two Chinese POWs in a Indian prison, which you probably have never heard of I reckon. And what was all that fighting for ? ——- A piece of land that was traditionally of Chinese territory but forcibly taken away by British colonists and that Nehru wanted to keep as part of India after the British retreated.

    I know that land is in fact under Indian jurisdiction, but I am not seeing any possibility the current Chinese government will openly acknowledge that it is legitimate Indian territory. This is something like I broke into your house, killed a couple of your family members and occupied the house for a month or two; and during that occupation, I also robbed Hu ZhenYu's house and took some of his belongings away from him and put them in your house; and after that I was arrested for murder and robbery and put into jail; and you got your house back and wanted to keep Hu ZhenYu's belongings. Do you think those things that used to belong to Hu ZhenYu now legitimately belong to you ?

    24 Feb 2005, 16:29

  224. New Yorker

    Aruni,

    Well, I am following your logic that "borders are ever changing" ! And according to what ? Force, is that what you meant ? If that is the case, we Chinese will take it back by force ! Let's fight another war !!! The winner will occupy the land !!!

    24 Feb 2005, 16:49

  225. New Yorker

    Albeit I do admit that pre-colonialism Indian and Chinese cultures had much to be proud of, I do shed doubt on your comment that they were ‘flawless’. After all, China’s obsession with it being the Middle Kingdom led it to ban foreign trade (as the Ming did). The Confucian system also placed merchants at the lowest rung of the society. Similar cultural problems were there in India too. As I said so many times before, cultures are evolutionary.

    The Chinese fixation that modern Indian society is ‘overshadowed’ by British values is grossly misplaced. If you are referring to our political system, then democracy has not been the monopoly of one country. Sure, modern democracy was intellectually conceived by John Locke in England, but the historic trails can be dragged to Plato, Aristotle and even the Indus Valley Civilisation. Secondly, America openly admits that it aspired to become a society as conceived by Locke, yet does that make America ‘overshadowed’ by Britain? Americans hold a distinct value system to the British, just like the Indians do for their democracy. China itself borrowed heavily, both intellectually as well as materially from Japan, USSR, Marx, Lenin, Stalin and others at various points in its modern history. If you are referring to English, then speaking English is monetarily profitable in the international market. Even China is trying hard to make its graduates more bi-lingual.

    Regarding the border issue, I have already made my stand clear in my response to Stone Liu. Borders are ever changing, and recognising one empire and not recognising the other simply isn’t logically sustainable. The talk about ‘fighting it out’ over Arunachal is ludicrous, firstly because most countries across the globe regard it as an integral part of India and secondly because both India and China are heavily focused on developing their economies at the moment. Also, please don’t stay in the illusion that China was the ‘good guy’ after the war in 1962 (needless to speak of its malpractice before the skirmish). China backed down only because 1) Indian parliament was about to authorise the use of the airforce on China’s already strained logistics, and 2) The US and USSR were exerting a lot of pressure on Beijing to back down. China was forced to get out of Arunachal precisely because of these reasons as well, not because of some new found piety.

    I don’t think even the most hardline cadres in Beijing (Mr. Zemin and his junta) would recommend the use of military force in trying to occupy 90,000 sq. kms of Indian territory. Give it 5–6 years, and PRC would slowly back down after having instructed Xinhua to shut up. Of course, a lecture on generosity would follow.

    24 Feb 2005, 17:14

  226. New Yorker

    Aruni,

    I hereby want to remind you that you have not answered my quesion posed at the end of my posting #223.

    The rationale implicated in you last comments is that "borders are ever changing" and whoever is occupying that land for the time being will legitimately own it. That is fine. Imagine China will get it back by force and occupy it for, say, 50 years and that will be ours——-that is so easy !

    The only strategic leverage India can use towards China is Dalai Lama and a handful of his lieutenants, and that man is aging fast. India will eventually lose him as the only deterence to China, whereas the latter still has Pakistan. It is hard to imagine that India can defeat both Pakinstan and China on two separate fronts, and only then will come the perfect time for China to reclaim that land.

    I just can not agree more upon your argument that "borders are ever changing", and that particular one will change too.

    24 Feb 2005, 19:44

  227. A Chinese

    Aruni,

    Please read my comments below regarding your message #222:

    [Your Comments]:You are making the same mistake as some others on my blog. The slums that are currently being uprooted are those which are encroaching on public property. Private property is one of the fundamentals of any functioning democracy and therefore a large number of legal slums cannot be uprooted without the consent of the owners.

    [A Chinese]:Please don't change subject here, you didn't answer my questions regarding my doubt about your democracy. Your term " Legal Slum" confuses me, do you mean there are also lots of Slum in India which are not encroaching on public property and are called "Legal slums"? If the "Legal Slums" are not encroaching on public property, then they must be encroaching on private property, right? if so, is it legal encroaching on private property? if not, then my question is: where are these " Legal Slums" located? Very puzzling!!!

    The tone you talked regarding this issue is very much like the guy from Mumbai municipality, no wonder you shows no pity towards these poor people. Anyway, the point here is not that the slums that are being uprooted are illegal, the point here is that these uprooted slums dweller become homeless, and people could be dying on the street! It appears that your India government does not care about the slums dwellers who lost their home, otherwise why don't you demolish the slums only after building housing for the poor dwellers? and this is what you called a "functioning democracy" in India? Again, can you answer my question: Do these slum dwellers have a say in your government decision? The more you are hiding away from this question, the more I believe you don't have true faith at your democracy. (To be continued…)

    25 Feb 2005, 05:08

  228. A Chinese

    [Your Comments]: Regarding Sikkim, in October 2003 the Chinese Foreign Ministry officially recognised it to be an integral part of India. All the official maps thereafter have been changed by Beijing.

    [A Chinese]: What you said above is very much laughable, it seems to me like most of your other claims, this is just another one which comes with no basis, and you are doing the same thing here without providing any facts. As what I asked in my previous post, can you provide the facts here to support your claim? any articles or any news headlines? any links from the web? or can you provide the complete official statement from Chinese Foreign Ministry which officially recognised the Sikkim to be an integral part of India in October 2003? The more you are talking based on air, the more ignorant you will show here.
    However I did do a searching from the web site of Chinese Foreign Ministry and there are totally 3 links which mentioned about the issue of Sikkim, but none of them I found sounds like an official statement that China recognised it to be a part of India. All of these links are about Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson answering questions in the conference press, and some of questions are asked in regards to the Sikim issue. The interesting part here is all answers to the question about Sikkim in all these three press conference held after Oct. 11, 2004 is the same! here, I quote the latest one which was answered on 05/18/04, and the spokesperson is Liu Jianchao:

    =====================================================================================
    Q: Which is the largest democracy, China or India? Secondly, does China regard Sikkim as a part of India?

    A: China's political system is democratic and China is the largest developing country in the world. India is also one of the largest developing nations. It's totally up to the Indian people to choose their own social and political system and to adopt the kind of democracy in accordance with their own national conditions. We respect the choice of the Indian people. I don't want to make a comparison of the two democracies.

    The question of Sikkim is left over from history. We have to respect history and take reality into consideration. I believe that the question will be solved gradually with the improvement and development of Sino-Indian relations.

    =====================================================================================

    (To be continued…)

    25 Feb 2005, 05:11

  229. A Chinese

    (To be continued…)

    The other 3 links are the conference calls held on 5/18/05, 10/14/03, and 10/11/03, below are the links:

    link (spokesperson: Liu Jianchao's )

    link (spokesperson: Zhang Qiyue )

    link (spokesperson: Zhang Qiyue )

    What you said "All the official maps thereafter have been changed by Beijing" means nothing here. I am very suspious about what you said here since I don't have any China's official map here to take a look. But I do see a map from an India's Web site and I do see the change from the so called current Chinese official map which the website presented. The change I saw was that the name of sikkim was removed. The reason I say this means nothing is that you cannot find this sikkim name from the China's official map doesn't mean that China officially recognise it to be a part of India, simple as that. On the other hand, the name of sikkim was not found inside India from that map either. (To be continued…)

    25 Feb 2005, 05:16

  230. A Chinese

    In addition, I read an article from Jamestown foundation's website, and the title of the article is INDIA AND CHINA, REPEATING OLD HABITS, the author is Harvey Stockwin. The link of this article is here: link Let me quote some paragraphs here and I hope your feeling does not get hurt too much after you read it:

    …..........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

    Additionally, India made the fundamental error of indicating publicly, through numerous press reports, the concession that it wanted from Beijing—China's acceptance of Sikkim's accession to India. Chinese maps do not yet designate Sikkim as part of India. Why India raised this issue is something of a mystery, since India has no need for Chinese approval of Sikkim's accession.

    But once India had telegraphed its concern, China set out to pressure India on the subject of Beijing's own perennial area of insecurity—its hold on Tibet. In the end, India gave ground on Tibet while China gave no ground on Sikkim. This is true despite many assertions by Indian officials, including by Vajpayee himself. External Affairs Minister Sinha still maintains that a memorandum on trade means "the issue of Sikkim has been largely resolved."

    The main document produced at the summit was a lengthy and verbose joint declaration of "Principles for Relations and Comprehensive Cooperation." In it, India "recognizes that the Tibet Autonomous Region is part of the territory of the People's Republic of China and reiterates that it does not allow Tibetans to engage in anti-China political activities in India."

    India claimed that this was similar to what has been said on earlier occasions. For China, this was the first time India had said what China wanted to hear. "An important and positive expression," the Chinese Foreign Ministry called it. In the Joint Declaration, India also repeated its longstanding recognition of "One China." Beijing offered no recognition of Sikkim as part of India.

    Kong was categorical that China was sticking to its previous position. "The question of Sikkim is a question left over from history, and is an enduring one. The question cannot be solved overnight. We hope this question can be resolved gradually."

    ….............................................................................................................................................

    "....In the end, India gave ground on Tibet while China gave no ground on Sikkim.", "...India also repeated its longstanding recognition of "One China." Beijing offered no recognition of Sikkim as part of India.", Huh, very interesting statements, I suggest you read the whole article completely, it is very informative, BTW, the Jamestown foundation is not a India media, it is located at Washington, DC. (To be Continued…)

    25 Feb 2005, 05:17

  231. A Chinese

    [Your Comments]: "As far as Arunachal is concerned, you are giving in to the age old disease in Chinese mentality. According to the Chinese, whatever that once could have belonged to them remotely is for theirs to keep in perpetuity for eternity. That is not how real life works, otherwise Japan would own Manchuria to this day, or Ulan Batur would be the capital of China (as Mongols ruled it for so long). If you fail to recognise the McMahon line, then there is no way we can recognise the Qing empire. If you say that no non-Asian empires are recognised, then please note that the land between Iran and Indonesia was at some point or the other owned by the Mughal Empire or the Hindu empires before that.
    Now that is not how real life works. In the real world, borders are ever changing. I request you not to strongly oppose Arunachal as part of India because in 3&4 years when quietly gives up, you will be left red faced."

    [A Chinese]: I had said enough about Arunachal, and I will said it again here: Arunachal belongs to China, and it was illegally occupied by India. This is the fact. Your argument of Japan own Manchuria has no logic at all, People living in Manchuria are Manchus who are Chinese, not Japanese, there is no way for Japan to claim it as its own. But people living in Arunachal are most Tibetans, Tibet is China's Land (so is Arunachal), that's a different case. BTW, the Mughal Empire you mentioned actually originated from Mongols.
    Regarding your request to ask me not to strongly oppose Arunachal as part of India because in 3 or 4 years, China will quietly give up and I will be red faced – YOU ARE DAYDREAMING AGAIN! Hey, maybe what we will see is a totally different scenario – the map of China changed again due to the new part just added in… you never know, so don't be so sure what will happen. (To be continued…)

    25 Feb 2005, 05:22

  232. A Chinese

    [Your Comments]: "Regarding Manchus and Mongols, if they were so Chinese then why were there movements in the 19th century to try and replace the ‘foreign’ Manchus with the erstwhile ‘native’ Ming? There was a distinct opposition in Chinese society to accommodate these rulers of China. In any case, the more you argue for their assimiliation the more weak your case becomes. For then, the Mughals and Turks are by the same standard Indian and your argument about ‘enslaved’ India bites the dust."

    [A Chinese]: OK, let's discuss the topic if Mongols or Manchus are Chinese. You said there are movements in 19th century to try and replace the 'foreign' Manchus with 'native' Ming, this is again your one more claim which based on air. It shows you don't really understand Chinese history even though you can give some Chinese dynasty's name or some history incidents. In short, you don't quite understand what the term "Chinese" stands for. Let me explain to you in some more detail here: For example, if we go by the proper definition of "Chinese" then one can argue that Genghis Khan is both Chinese and Mongolian. One of the biggest modern misconceptions is the term "Chinese" often used as a reference to a specific ethnic group. There're many ethnic groups in China including the majority Hans and many minority groups such as Mongolians, Tibetans, Manchus, Uygurs, etc. Unlike smaller surrounding nations, the development of imperial China was a huge empire with diverse ethnic groups since it was first united. Even the so called majority Hans are a pretty diverse group with the definition of Hans evolving over the centuries. (Ex: the Cantonese and Hakka were not always classified as Hans) The differences among regional and linguistic subgroups of Han Chinese are at least as great as those among many European nationalities. Also many ethnic groups have been transformed or disappeared over the course of history.
    The term "Chinese" would be just like the term "American." However, "Chinese" is a relatively modern term and it did not exist during Genghis Khan's era. To be precise, Genghis was Mongolian not Han. As far as the Yuan dynasty, it was indeed a Mongol (Kublai Khan, Genghis Khan's grandson, he styles himself a Chinese Emperor, adopting the dynastic name Yuan) led dynasty. However, it's considered part of Chinese history because its political structure was largely based on Sino-centric dynastic concept. Similarly, the Manchus led Qing dynasty, Qidans led Liao dynasty and Jurchens led Jin dynasty ruled over all or part of the Middle Kingdom at various times. However, the Hans led Han, Tang and Ming dynasties also controlled territories of the Mongols, Manchus and other minorities when they were in power. BTW, again the Mughals actually originated from Mongols.
    Enough said, hope can help you understand a little bit more. The more you want to argue on this topic with me, the closer you will get to the fact.

    Cheers,
    A Chinese

    25 Feb 2005, 05:25

  233. New Yorker

    Further to your ‘question’ in 223- What if Hu Zhen Yu did not have legitimate ownership of his belongings? I for one have never conceded that China’s claim to Arunachal is legitimate. Furthermore, if the concerned state authorities cannot prove/coerce me to give back Zhen’s supposed property, then Zhen will have to stop crying and live with it, unless he can devise some means (legal or physical) to get it back. That is the real world.

    Your speculation that China will use military force is not misplaced. A recent CIA report actually confirmed intentions in certain circles in China to attack India’s North East in around 35–40 years time when China is sufficiently strong enough.

    Hu Zhen Yu

    I am sorry, but I cannot permit racist attack on my blog. Any such messages will be deleted from now on. Regarding your comment about gold medals, please note that India holds the world record for winning the most gold medals in Olympic men’s field hockey.

    A Chinese

    A ‘legal slum’ basically entails land legitimately purchased on the market by lower middle class/poor people. Therefore, they are free to build whatever they please on this house, be it a slum. Therefore it is considered ‘private property’ and cannot be destroyed without consent. These people have complete say and rights as citizens of Mumbai, unlike the people who illegally migrated and occupied land belonging to the municipality.

    Regarding Sikkim, I quote from link

    “China's Foreign Ministry had quietly stopped showing Sikkim as a separate country in October 2003, just prior to Vajpayee's second meeting with his Chinese counterpart, Wen Jiabao on the sidelines of a regional meeting in Bali, Indonesia.”

    Your claim about Arunachal demographics is laughable. The population is divided between tribals, Buddhists and Hindus. A lot of influence from Buddhism and Hinduism has filtered through to the local tribes. There is not even a separatist movement in the state, so unless China invades India, there is no other option (and this one is unrealistic as well).

    Also, if you read some source material from the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries you will see that the Han Chinese never really accepted the Manchus as their rulers. There were various movements seeking to overthrow the Qing and replace it with the Ming. Whatever you claim about the genes, whether the Manchus, Mongols, Uighurs, Tibetans, etc. are “Chinese” depends on how they perceive themselves to be. In that respect, none of them fit into the “Chinese description”.

    Of course it is hard to expect people under a dictatorship to understand the concept of “consent”.

    25 Feb 2005, 10:52

  234. New Yorker

    To All,

    It is true both between the lines of Aruni's comments and in the real world that all languages, as far as international relations are concerned, boils down to the the language of force. Therefore the only way to resolve the border issue between India and China is a war, or many wars. And the winner will have the final say !

    25 Feb 2005, 16:05

  235. New Yorker

    One of my compatriots' comments on India and Indians. Take a look, it is very interesting.

    Data show that China developed much faster than India even before China's reform. India was much better than China before the Chinese Communist Party took power. But China's GDP caught up India in 70s last century.

    GDP Per capita ( I believe it is based on PPP)
    Country…1820….1870….1913….1950….1973…1998
    China…....600…...530…...552…...439…...839….3,117
    India….....533…...533…...673…...619…...853….1,746
    link
    link (more details)

    India's economic grows at average 6% GDP vs. China's grows at 9% for last 2 decades.
    India has 2 times faster population grow that the same time(1.7 vs. China 0.8%).
    link
    link

    In China, there is no space for the discrimination against other domestic ethnic groups. Women are enjoying the equal rights. Chinese minorities often have more rights or privileges than Han people. Can Indians say this?

    Many people say India has a good social system. Does it work? In early days (40s), India was in much better position than China in all-economical aspect. Now?

    The above links come from various resources. I collect these data to show the facts to people because I have heard too much on the Internet and magazines that say: India is better than China…India has more potential than China…. blah, blah…. blah, let alone that some important, high rank Indian officials say: Our missile can reach …part of China,...China is the biggest threaten to India. Many of this kind of boring, disgusting noise against China in the international community comes from India or is written by Indian.

    I wish Indian people can enjoy their good life and make progress. But I don't like India¡¯s boasting by denouncing another country, especially China, basing on no facts.

    Have you Indian heard that Chinese government or Chinese news saying: India is our enemy or we are better than India. No such things at all. What we can hear often is that: India is doing better than us in IT service. We never say that our missiles can hit India either even ours can reach any corner on the Earth long time ago, let alone the neighboring India.

    China is a large developing country. She has a lot of issues today and future. Our Chinese mentality is: Do it harder because we are behind (of course, not behind India), do it now because we cannot wait. We are always trying to find things that other countries are doing better than us, and trying hard to make up the gap.

    25 Feb 2005, 17:12

  236. New Yorker

    Even Indians claim India is a democratic country. But its corruption is worse than China. China government is treating the corruption issue very seriously in recent years. see
    link
    Another research report said India's corruption is much worse than China too: link
    Do you believe Democracy works in India?

    25 Feb 2005, 17:36

  237. New Yorker

    It is not just about military force. It is also about diplomatic and economic muscle. Not all conflicts go as far as full fledged war. Finally, many countries consider whether war is the suitable option vis-a-vis silent concession before making a move. The American dilemma about Taiwan is a classic example of this.

    It is a well known story that China raced ahead of India after the 1960s, because while China was slowly but surely dumping its socialist baggage, we were adopting more and more of them. Deng Xiaoping and his reforms were the final straw that led to China racing ahead of India. Remember, Indian reforms did not come until 1991.

    Corruption is a big problem in India, as in China. Considering the fact that the figures about Chinese corruption can only be recorded on the basis of what Xinhua dishes out (since its a closed society), possibly it can be said that China's situation is better than India in terms of corruption. But that is only one side of a civil society- what about freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom to elect representatives, freedom of belief, freedom of movement, freedom of information, etc. China falls flat on these.

    25 Feb 2005, 17:58

  238. New Yorker

    Suppose China is a society as "closed" as you believe it is, it is therefore reasonable to reckon that most figures (not just corruption) "can only be recorded on the basis of what Xinhua dishes out", and therefore it is very likely most of those reports about China's all sorts of so called "success" constitute just a big lie and actually India is ahead of China on many frontiers, why the Indian government is trying so desperately to catch-up with China ? Isn't that a stupid thing to do ? Shame on Indian government, I would say. And "while China was slowly but surely dumping its socialist baggage, we were adopting more and more of them"——-that is double shame on India.

    All of those "freedoms" you mentioned above are absolute truth and I believe every bit of it, and I also believe that those freedoms will take India way ahead of China very soon.

    I actally have a suggestion for you, following your same logic, ———you better not go to Shanghai, because all you will be able to see is just "what Chinese government or Shanghai municipal authorities want you to see, which is also a big lie. Give up on that plan and save money for more meaningful use.

    I know deep in your heart you do not want to see what you do not want to see. I applaud your mentality like that, for the more Indians stick to that mentality, the more likely for India to "catch-up with China", and the less of a threat India can pose to China. May God bless all Indians stay in that mentality !

    25 Feb 2005, 19:43

  239. New Yorker

    Take an interesting look at how Indian nationalists perceive their own PM and China:

    India betrays Tibet. Shame on India's prime minister, Atal Behari Vajpayee, who has not missed another chance to prove his ridiculous status as one of the world's least intelligent and most dangerous leaders. During a state visit to China (a country that does not deserve state visits from democratically-elected officials), Vajpayee has recognized China's rights on Tibet in return for China's recognition of India's rights on Sikkim. Now take a map and compare the sizes: Tibet is about 1,000 times bigger than Sikkim. What a deal, Mr Vajpayee! You just sold out Tibet for a pocket of land that probably you can't even find on the map. Needless to say, Vajpayee did not utter a single word for the thousands of dissidents who are rotting in China's jails. This is the same man who complains with Pakistan because the people of Kashmir oppose India's occupation. After all, there is a logic in his madness.
    Now that he has made peace with China (or, better, given China what China demanded), let's see if Vajpayee is consistent: he originally claimed that India needed the nuclear bomb in order to defend itself against China, a nuclear power. Well, now that India and China have become best of friends, why does India still need nuclear weapons?

    25 Feb 2005, 20:15

  240. A Chinese

    Hi Aruni:

    See my comments below regarding your message#225 and #237:

    [Your comments:] A ‘legal slum’ basically entails land legitimately purchased on the market by lower middle class/poor people. Therefore, they are free to build whatever they please on this house, be it a slum. Therefore it is considered ‘private property’ and cannot be destroyed without consent. These people have complete say and rights as citizens of Mumbai, unlike the people who illegally migrated and occupied land belonging to the municipality.

    [A Chinese]: You are not telling the truth, and the truth is your India cadres want to transform Mabai into Shanghai, not because the slum is encroaching on the public properties.

    [Your comments] Regarding Sikkim, I quote from link China's Foreign Ministry had quietly stopped showing Sikkim as a separate country in October 2003, just prior to Vajpayee's second meeting with his Chinese counterpart, Wen Jiabao on the sidelines of a regional meeting in Bali, Indonesia

    [A Chinese]: Enough being said, the truth is India gave ground on Tibet while China gave no ground on Sikkim, and China offered no recognition of Sikkim as part of India. It seems to me you just don't have the courage to accept the truth in the face of facts, and it look like you are living in the world of your own creation.

    [Your comments] Your claim about Arunachal demographics is laughable. The population is divided between tribals, Buddhists and Hindus. A lot of influence from Buddhism and Hinduism has filtered through to the local tribes. There is not even a separatist movement in the state, so unless China invades India, there is no other option (and this one is unrealistic

    [A Chinese]: Enough being said on this, just want to remind you one more time, the Arunachal belongs to China, and nobody can deny it. In addition, please note that the current talks on the LAC (line of actual control) is simply for the purpose of maintain the current peace on both sides, and it doesn't mean to settle the final border line yet, so let's wait and see. (To be continued…)

    26 Feb 2005, 05:04

  241. A Chinese

    [Your comments] Also, if you read some source material from the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries you will see that the Han Chinese never really accepted the Manchus as their rulers. There were various movements seeking to overthrow the Qing and replace it with the Ming. Whatever you claim about the genes, whether the Manchus, Mongols, Uighurs, Tibetans, etc. are “Chinese” depends on how they perceive themselves to be. In that respect, none of them fit into the “Chinese description”.

    [A Chinese:] ]: Are you Manchus, Mongols or Uighurs, or Tibetans? If you are not, then how do you know what they perceive themselves to be? To me, what you said "...none of them fit into the "Chinese description" is simply your perception, so please don't misplace your perceptions of China which seems to be a negative one based on my reading of your lines, and I really hope that the India leadership are not full of people like you or alike, otherwise it will not be a good thing to India, it may cost India badly (like what happened in 1962)

    [Your comments] Of course it is hard to expect people under a dictatorship to understand the concept of “consent”.
    [A Chinese:] It is hard to expect people living in the world of their own creation to understand the concept of "truth" and also there is none so hopeless as those who keep on twisting the facts and unwilling to accept it.

    Also regarding your comments in message# 225: "...China backed down only because 1) Indian parliament was about to authorise the use of the airforce on China’s already strained logistics, and 2) The US and were exerting a lot of pressure on Beijing to back down. China was forced to get out of Arunachal precisely because of these reasons as well, not because of some new found piety."

    [A Chinese:] Firstly, please keep in mind, in the history, there is no "If", secondly, what you claimed is not true, the reason why India didn't use the Air force is because India were worried about the counterattack by the Chinese Airforce. Please don't say India airforce was superior to Chinese airforce at that time, it was just a crap compared to the Air force of US or USSR. Please note that the Chinese Air force performed very well during the Korea War against US airforce, and also don't be so trusty on your equipment superiority, because it does not necessary determine the final results of the War. On the other hand, it is lucky that India didn't use the Airforce, otherwise the results maybe even more ugly. Thirdly, you said the US were exerting a lot of pressure on Beijing to backdown, this is again shows you still don't know China. In Korea War, China fought against the UN army that contains armies from about 16 countries, and the majority is the US Army, did the China hesitate to send troop to Korea?

    You give me an impression that you are very good at telling something with no basis and showing unwillingness to accept the truth and I doubt if it worth it for me to waste my time here after I first happened to find your blog a week ago.

    Regards,
    A Chinese.

    26 Feb 2005, 05:17

  242. New Yorker

    Exaggerating my point has become a norm for you it seems. I conceeded that China’s corruption situation was ‘perhaps’ better than India despite taking into account the “shoving under the carpet” of all the dirt by CCP and Xinhua. We all know the debacle about SARS, AIDS and bird flu cover up. Who knows- the party may have been more successful in hiding other evils.

    I have said so many times that China, on most economic grouns, is at least 10 years ahead of India. It is impressive that India wants to follow China’s examples in these areas. However, as Adam Smith long ago spoke about ‘comparative advantage’, what India needs to do is learn from China’s strengths and build on its own.

    There was intense disappointment when PM Vajpayee gave up India’s long term support for Tibetan independence. However, the timing was actually well timed and saved India a lot of embarrassment because soon after that the Dalai Lama gave up his idea of a free Tibet and said he would be happy with autonomy.

    A Chinese

    Mumbai indeed aspires to ‘look’ more professional, in the same way as Shanghai has transformed itself. I do not see anything wrong in acknowledging the achievments of the Chinese people. However, there is a limit to which forcible slum demolition can take place in India. As I mentioned earlier, it is only possible for illegal occupants of land.

    I gave you the link from the news item to read, however you still choose to ignore the facts on Sikkim. Next time you visit China, just pick up an official map of Asia and study it for yourself. Indeed, CCP wanted the whole scenario to be hush hush because it didn’t want to lose face in front of ardent nationalists like yourself.

    You are correct about Arunachal- the current talks are being held not by keeping historical baggage in mind, but in an air of pragmatism considering ground realities. Therefore, expect status quo to be maintained, like Taiwan. That translates into Arunachal continuing to be an integral part of the Union of India.

    I have read first hand material from the periods I am talking about and I can find distinct hostility towards the Manchus and the Mongols. Han scholars have persistently defined them as ‘foreigners’ and ‘barbarians’ and favoured a native dynasty (like the Ming) ruling Peking. Integration may have occurred at a later stage, which I am not denying. But then the age old Chinese assumption about India being ‘conquered’ by the Muslims falls flat, as they became ‘Indian’ much earlier.

    Have you ever heard of our China loving, USSR admiring Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru? He was the one who lobbied hard in parliament not to use the Indian airforce on the invading PLA in a hope to clear up the problem soon. The Indian communists collected money from cadres to ‘welcome’ the liberating army.

    There was a lot of betrayal inside India during 1962 and it hurts just as badly as the opium wars for China, or the rape of Nanking.

    26 Feb 2005, 11:35

  243. Hu ZhenYu

    There is really no need for India to criticizing China. Since Chinese people has no respect to India, Chinese will never take any advice from India, because deep in Chinese people’s heart, they think they are better than India. The whole world agrees this also.

    China look down on India, since India can not achieve any thing. UNSC seat, when ?Any time table ? You can apply of course J Olympic gold? Year 3000?

    26 Feb 2005, 14:12

  244. Hu Zhen Yu

    Firstly I do apologise if you've been offended at the deletion of your messages, but as I have made clear at the onset of this debate, no form of useless conversation, copyright material or racist abuse will be tolerated on my blog.

    You've just made two sweeping assumptions. Firstly, the agenda for UN reform is already on the table and its a matter of 'when' not 'if'. Regarding Olympic gold, I have reminded you in the past that India holds the world record for winning most number of Olympic gold medals for mens' field hockey. I know China's Olympic performance is top notch and nor do I wish to deny it. But your point that India hasn't won a gold medal is factually falacious.

    26 Feb 2005, 14:21

  245. Hu ZhenYu

    What is field hocky? When you got the medal? Where? Why I do not know?

    Ok, let's make it simple about UNSC? When you will get it? Next year, next next year ?
    Will you have veto power? I do not think India will ever get it.

    The whole thing will be an endless discussing. China will bring more and more country on table, from Africa, to Indonesia, Pakistan. If 10 country want to join at same time, no one willl get it after all … That is China's strategy.

    26 Feb 2005, 15:13

  246. Iron Farmer

    —by Aruni: It is a well known story that China raced ahead of India after the 1960s, because while China was slowly but surely dumping its socialist baggage, we were adopting more and more of them. Deng Xiaoping and his reforms were the final straw that led to China racing ahead of India. Remember, Indian reforms did not come until 1991.

    Aruni, I understand you believe in "India will catch-up". It maybe you wish or expectation. I logical expectation is based on a trend, and assumes uncertainties can affect the trend. Somewhat in your base was not true. First, China did not raced ahead India in the 60s, India had PPP or real-GDP far more than China in that period until 1980. India falling behind was not mainly caused by 12 years of reform. There many other reasons contribute to the left-out.

    One of the Indian knew the case found some data contradict to what you said. China reform can show up on growth chart clearly without special indicator for you to notice(doubles the growth rates). Compare with India, after economic reform, its economic growth was about the same. Why don’t you argue India made a fake “reform” or just indeed a political advertisement? Neither to look an answer at your superior political system.

    ========================
    INDIA DEFENCE CONSULTANTS
    New Delhi, 01 November 2003

    Can India Catch-Up With China?

    By Mohan Guruswamy, Abhishek Kaul and Vishal Handa

    Yet another comparison would be even more instructive. In 1978, at the inception of its reforms, China’s per capita GDP (in constant 1995 US$) was $148, whereas that of India in the same year was $236. Seven years after it began its reforms, in 1986, China caught up with India in per capita GDP terms ($278 vs.$273) and a decade after reforms in 1988 was comfortably ahead of India with a per capita GDP of $342 compared with India’s $312 (see figure 1). In the first post reform decade the Chinese economy grew at 10.1% while the Indian economy grew at 5.7% in the corresponding decade (see figure 2 and table 3). Quite clearly that was India’s lost decade.

    Table #3:
    …......................China ….. India

    Pre reform period … 5.52 ….. 5.7

    Post reform period
    (First 10 years) ….... 10.1 …. 5.9

    Source: Calculated from World Development Indicators 2003

    ((Mohan Guruswamy, who had taken a short break from writing, is back with a bang with an in depth analysis of the Indian economy, compiled by him and his associates Abhishek Kaul and Vishal Handa at the Centre for Policy Alternatives, New Delhi –– an independent think tank. We have always maintained that Economy dictates Security and serious security professionals may gain much from this analysis. The comparisons with China are apt and highlight the large strides India must take to catch up with that country. We hope our report will spur the country to greater endeavour with vigour and resolve.))

    27 Feb 2005, 01:50

  247. Iron Farmer

    I copied more from the pervious article. Here is the ending portion. From the auther's point of view, after couple more decades (2020), even though India will eventually catch up in growth rate when China eventually slows down at certain level, does it matter to Chinese?

    By the way, I made up the 2004 date from what I know. Since service and agriculture are leading India growth rate where Chinese Industry always 3% – 4% ahead over all GDP growth.

    ========================
    Table 5: Sectoral Break up of GDP (%)

    …...... 1980 …... 1990 ….. 2000 —————(2004 est by I.Farmer)

    Agriculture
    China …. 30.1 …. 27.1 ….. 15.9 —————-(13%)
    India …. 42.8 ….. 31 …... 28 ———————-(24.5%)

    Industry
    China …. 48.5 ….. 41.6 …. 50.9 ——————(53%)
    India …. 21.9 ….. 28 ….... 26 ———————-(23.5%)

    Services
    China …. 21.4 ….. 31.3 ….. 33.2 —————-(34%)
    India …. 35.3 ….. 41 ….... 46 ———————-(52%)

    Sources: China statistical year book: 2001,
    India’s National Accounts Statistics (various issues)
    ==============================

    From the inter-sectoral picture we have now it is quite clear that China is a fast industrializing country whereas India seems to be entering the post-industrial phase without having industrialized. We need to reverse this trend by stimulating industrialization, especially since it creates more jobs and has greater multiplier effects on the economy.

    The challenge ahead of us is not catching with China’s growth rate, which inevitably must slow down. When nations compete, growth rates matter little if one is already well ahead. Can we do what China did to us in 1986? Can we come abreast with it? To do that in 2020 we need to grow at 11.6% and to do that long after most of us are gone in 2050, India must grow at 8.9% every year. Catching up with growth rates is not good enough. If that were the game we are already doing much better than the USA, Europe and Japan! So if Montek Singh Ahluwalia says we will do 7%, that’s very good. But that’s just one swallow and that doesn’t mean that our season in the sun is at hand.

    (The writers are at the Centre for Policy Alternatives, New Delhi, an independent think tank and can be contacted at cpasind@yahoo.co.in)

    27 Feb 2005, 02:41

  248. Iron Farmer

    == Regarding Olympic gold, I have reminded you in the past that India holds the world record for winning most number of Olympic gold medals for mens' field hockey.

    Aruni,
    ZhenYu is not a typical Chinese if you follow the thread, he is rather an outstanding one in special hobbits. I really doubt he said “we, Chinese, Chinese people” actually really means Chinese. I assume that maybe small group of people. On Olympic issue, hockey must be Ice Hockey is winter Olympic game. Most winter Olympic games are rich club games. Geographic location and economic budget make 3th world very difficult to participate the Winter Olympics. For example, Canada and US can play Hockey on perfect smooth lakes in winner for number of months, the cost is near nothing. Where countries locate next to Equator is too “hot” to practice the game. In 2002, India did participate Olympic, but the players of most successful game were trained in Australia as the TV reporter said on TV. I don’t remember if you won a medal in 2002. I doubt in any Winter Olympics. However, India had pretty good history in Summer Olympics in 1st half of 1900s when China was not a member. India did list in top 5 for a few times. The first one China joined was 1980s.

    27 Feb 2005, 03:53

  249. New Yorker

    India catching up with China any time soon (say 100 years, a short period of time in human history) is pure daydreaming, an illusion all Indians stay in intoxicated. Reasons are as follows:

    1) India as a nation does not have the intelligence and mentaliy to inquiry into the root cause of their backwardness, let alone to change it.

    2) India's political system, a nominal democracy, does not provide them with necessary means of uniting its people and allocating resources to advance the country.

    3) India's social system, the Caste system, resides to be the cause of all problems the country is having. This system dictates all privileges of upper castes (e.g. the Brahmins) and all underprivileges of countless lower castes. On one hand, people of lower castes and the "untouchables" actually believe that all of their miseries are attributed to inadequate behaviors in their previous lives, and they must endure them, and those of upper class are convinced that their power and rights have been earned by an accumulation of positive Karma in their preceding lives. On the other hand, people of low castes and the "untouchables" must not try to improve their lives since any such attempts will be seen as challenging the will of the Gods (it is said there are over 300 millions of them), and people of high castes must abide by God's will by enjoying their privileges. This is a so called "prisoner effect" and there is no way for India to get out of it.

    4) The apalling social, economical and political inequalities will eventually cause revolts that shatter the country into many many small co-existing states, each worshiping their own Gods, having their own government, etc.

    27 Feb 2005, 04:04

  250. New Yorker

    Talking of any of India's not so many successful areas (e.g., software exporting) is complete non-sense and meaningless without understanding the root cause of all the problems the country is suffering from——the Caste system. India as a state is sitting on a vocano, of which an eruption can be triggered any minute by a moderate economical crisis or even a natrual harzard.

    When that happens, or better we make it happen, we will reclaim our land, and get much more than just that !

    27 Feb 2005, 04:22

  251. Hu Zhen Yu

    Field hockey is the technical name for the game popularly known as ‘hockey’. China too fields a hockey team. I believe India has won 8 gold medals in this event and you are free to check the Olympic archives to confirm this.

    Regarding UNSC, yes one of the options in including new countries without veto power. However Germany, Japan and India have made it clear that this is unacceptable if other members continue to hold on to the veto. There is another possiblity- enlarging the security council and scrapping the veto alltogether. Please stop making comments like ‘..bringing African countries and Pakistan on UNSC…’ as it only shows your ignorance. At the moment the only African country which can be considered is South Africa.

    Iron Farmer

    To an extent you are right. India’s reform programme was far less deeply entrenched than China’s. Our reforms were mainly a result of our near bankruptcy in the late 1980s in terms of current account deficit. Also, Dr. Manmohan Singh, the then finance minister (and Prime Minister now) was voted out in 1996 and thus the reform process got stalled in political gimmicks. In China, the unemployed who protest outside closed State Owned Enterprises could not overturn the reforms. In India, they voted the government out.

    You are incorrect about the role of agriculture. It is actually one of the slowing factors on the Indian GDP growth rate. Industry has been growing in excess of 7.5% and service sector at nearly 10%. But agriculture refuses to budge over 3–4% because of low productivity.

    Field hockey is not the same as ice hockey. Ice hockey is played by only a very small number of countries.

    New Yorker

    How can you say Indian people do not have the ‘intelligence’ when Indians have succeeded in each and every field they have ventured into, be it in Europe, North America or elsewhere?

    If India’s democracy does prevent quick decision making in the short-term, does it not ensure stability in the long term vis-à-vis political turmoil witnessed in most authoritarian states and banana republics?

    If India’s caste system problem is as bad as you describe, then how come a lower caste person was India’s last President or how did H D Deve Gowda become India’s Prime Minister? If religious animosity in India is so bad, then how is our Prime Minister a Sikh and President a Muslim?

    If you feel that India will break up into smaller states, then can the same not be said about Taiwan, Xingjiang, Tibet, Manchuria, etc.?

    I know China is counting on a break up of India, and hence its support towards banana republics in the Indian sub-continent. I am glad you finally shed your hypocrisy and accepted the blatant fact.

    27 Feb 2005, 12:42

  252. Hu ZhenYu

    I do not think UNSC reform will ever happen. The current 5 permanent member with veto power has no interest for it to happen.
    Germany and Japan is very well represented by USA already. And USA is also like to keep it this way.

    What is wrong with Pakistan, Pakistan is an regional power equail to India. If you do not agree, show me some prove? Take Kasmir as a whole, beat it in a war? I do not think India has the power to do it. If we talk about military power of Asia. I think the correct ranking is like this.

    1) China
    2) Japan
    3) North Korea
    4) South Korea
    5) Vietnam
    6) India

    I think, North Korea army can trash India army easily.

    The people from Sub-continents, has never any good achievements in war record, sports record. The sub-continent people must be a unique species, black as Africa, but physically weaker.

    27 Feb 2005, 14:05

  253. New Yorker

    Aruni,

    I said "India AS A NATION does not have the intelligence….........", meaning collectively people do not show this, not refering to individual Indians who are very intelligent.

    India's Caste system and its religions are indivisible, and together they created a master-and-slave kind of society, which has evolved little and remained almost intact over the past 2000 years. Sikh and Muslim are not Hindus (82% of the population), and their becoming PM and President was intended for appeasement of tension between these religions, which is poised to deal a final blow to the country's political system so as to it breaks up into many small states.

    I never deny the possibility of China breaking up. However, impossible for Manchuria because the nationality has completely blended with Han and only of handful of them left still claiming Man. Less possible for Xingjiang, because there are more and more Han people going there over the past a few decades so Han is majority now. Tibet has been a problematic separatist province/area thanks to efforts by India to support the separatist movement. But with India acknowledging it as part of China and Dalai Lama is ageing fast, Tibet breaking off China is becoming less and less likely.

    The real problem is Taiwan, for which a vicious war is inevitable.

    China has been forced by India to take on the latter as an enemy. You succeeded in doing this and now you have an enemy of formidable prowess———congratulations !

    27 Feb 2005, 14:22

  254. Hu Zhen Yu

    Although your post contains some useless racial talk, I decided to let this one stay because it has some substance to it. Please note that any further such messages, in part or whole, will be deleted in their entirety.

    If you think Germany is represented by the US, then I laugh at your ignorance. Germany and the US have never been as apart in mindset as they are now ever since WW2. Germany and Japan have long vowed to break free from the shadows of Uncle Sam. Britain, France and Russia have openly voiced their support for India's candidature, although they have not committed on Japan or Germany. The US just playing a 'wait and watch' game. China is the only country opposed to either Japan or India coming to the UNSC, scared of losing its sole seat for Asia.

    Kashmir cannot be solved militarily because China proliferated nuclear weapons to Islamabad. In a conventional conflict, Pakistan won't last a week against India. North Korean army might be strong, but you forget that today's war is fought in land, sea and air. The Indian Airforce is one of the top 5 airforces on the planet, and North Korean MiGs will be destroyed before they take off. The Indian Navy is the best navy of Asia, and North Korea would soon find its old Soviet discarded gun boats turn into pieces of junk iron.

    I do not believe in rankings according to military power, but crudely put (taking into account army, airforce, navy, missile technology and nuclear power), the rankings for Asia would be-

    1. China
    2. India
    3. Japan
    4. North Korea
    5. Pakistan

    27 Feb 2005, 14:26

  255. New Yorker

    Perhaps your frustration over the past weeks to prove your points has lowered your debating standards. I will ignore the blatant fallacies in your post and concentrate on the material worth looking at.

    Dr. Manmohan Singh was not "made" Prime Minister by anyone. Lest you forget, in India people elect their ministers. The mandate in 2004 general elections was for Sonia Gandhi (again not a Hindu), but she backed down, leaving Dr. Singh as the most natural candidate. He has held all the top civil service positions in India and he is a well known economist. Same goes with Prof. Abdul Kalam- he was the father of the Indian nuclear bomb and missile technology. No one chose these people because of their background- they came through India's meritocracy and elected by India's people (82% of which are Hindu by the way).

    Regarding separatism, you have conceeded that China itself is infested with various kinds of separatism, varying in degree of intensity. But is a break up of China likley? Not to me. Same is the case with India.
    The Taiwan issue is unlikely to go to conflict. As of now, both sides seem happy with maintaining the status quo.

    27 Feb 2005, 14:31

  256. Hu ZhenYu

    India weapon are all bought, those so called India and Russia joint development, is in fact, Made in Russia paid by India.
    India air force only has 40 Su-30MKI, and under 100 Mirage -2000, all the rest are junk, fall out of sky by itself. I do not think India's Su-30MKI is combat ready.

    China does not want to spend too much money in import foreign arms, China like to make itself.
    India can buy plane, carriers, but there is one thing you can never buy.

    ballastic missle nuclear submarine. China's type 094 100% made in China, earns us the seat in UNSC.
    That nuclear submarine you rent from Russia is just a attack sub. No one will export, ballastic missle nuclear sub to you .

    Indian industry has no chance to develop its own, ballastic missle nuclear submarine

    27 Feb 2005, 14:43

  257. Hu ZhenYu

    Pakistan won't last 1 week in a war with India ???

    Aruni you are day dream again. You can tell me why after 3 war, Pakistan is still there? India still does not have Kasmir?

    27 Feb 2005, 14:47

  258. Hu Zhen Yu

    I think you're referring to the Indo-Russian joint venture AShm Brahmos. Note that the propulsion and body of the missile is identical to the N-22 Sunburn (which China imported from Russia). So what makes Brahmos more lethal?- the guidance system designed by India. Indian electronics are also on board the Su-30MKI, which has an Israeli cockpit mounted on the standard Su-30. Note that China also imported the Su-30MKK which lacks Indian electronics and Israeli radar, and therefore is inferior in its range.

    China imports just as much as India, if not more. All the J-series fighters of China (barring the J-10) are copies of Russian MiG fighters. I mentioned the Moskit and Su-30 above. China has also imported/license produced Su-27. Chinese tanks are a direct rip off from the Russian T-series tanks. China has imported the Sovermenny destroyer from Russia as well.

    India too has its domestic nuclear submarine project, tipped to be ready for induction by 2007. Like China, India too is rolling the P-series of destroyers and frigates, ADS the aircraft carrier, LCA the fighter, Arjun the tank, the missiles (Akash, Prithvi, Trishul Agni, Nag to mention a few). Like China, India too has a 5th generation fighter on the cards. Like China, India too has a hyperplane in sight. Like China, India too seeks to reach the moon.

    Wake up Hu Zhen Yu and see the light. There is little difference between the defence industries of China and India. All the arguments you made against India can be used against China too.

    27 Feb 2005, 14:54

  259. Hu Zhen Yu

    After 1965, when have India and Pakistan directly fought each other? In 1965, a treaty was signed because of American arm twisting when Indian Army was within the vicinity of Lahore. In 1971, we were liberating Bangladesh. In 1999, we were kicking out insurgents from our territory.

    Pakistan lives as a military capable nation because of doles from China and America. It would have collapsed economically decades ago.

    27 Feb 2005, 14:57

  260. Hu ZhenYu

    India electronics? What a joke? Can you make TV, refrigerator, DVD player?
    What kind of electronics industry you have? China’s electronics industry is well ahead of Russia.

    China fighter has Russia background, but they are 100% made in China.

    India cannot even do proper maintenance of its own mig-21. I always wonder, before India start to make Su-30, can you first give your mig-21 a proper fixing?

    China likes to help Pakistan, because every super power has its own pet dog. To deal with India, our Pakistan little dog is enough.

    We China do not want to India to develop, since we do not want India to compete resource with us. It is our strategy to use Pakistan to mess up with India, better start a war, even better a nuclear one, so India can be write off forever.

    This is our honest strategy, now you know what are you going to do about it?

    27 Feb 2005, 15:26

  261. New Yorker

    Aruni,

    You have a point in that both India and China buy as much Russia made weaponry, but the mentalities underneath these pruchases are different. Traditionally India has been supported by both ex-USSR and the West albeit sometimes not at the same time, whereas China has been one of the major containment targets of theirs. The current Russia military R&D is actually financed by India and China through these purchases. India is pretty safely relying on their supplies because as long as China is moving forward fast, it remains seen as the strategic competetor by the West, Russia, Japan and also India. China's purchases of Russian weapons in quantity are demanded by 1) Russians who have been observing how fast China has been digesting their technology (e.g., Mig-21, S300, Su27, jet engine, missiles) and who are afraid that China may eventually develop its own and more advanced technology and therefore do not need to buy more from Russia, 2) the looming war across Taiwan Strait, which almost inevitably involves US and Japan.

    Talking back about separatism, nobody can guarantee that Taiwan will not be ripped off China (we are just doing our best to prevent that from happening, we are taking this very very seriously), nor anybody can secure those separatist states within India. History has taught us the lesson that overconfidence inevitably lead to self-humiliation.

    27 Feb 2005, 15:33

  262. Iron Farmer

    == #251: You are incorrect about the role of agriculture. It is actually one of the slowing factors on the Indian GDP growth rate. Industry has been growing in excess of 7.5% and service sector at nearly 10%. But agriculture refuses to budge over 3–4% because of low productivity.

    Service jump 9.1% which contributed 69% of over GDP growth. India agriculture grew 9.6% previous year. How ever, agriculture is expected slow down to 1.1% in 2005. And since strong demand from China, coal and iron/steel those India main export jumped 40% in price, temperary hold up the industry numbers. Both agriculture and industry grow are not stable in India, they wave in large percentage. Only Service stands in front of everything. Bloomberg has news on India.

    === 2. India 3. Japan

    No, no way!
    You are over estimated India defense. Many people arguably put Japan on top of China. It has far more power in Navy and air force than India. I am not convinced an country spends $50 billion list under one spends $17 billion where heavily rely on import.

    ————————
    Services, which make up 52 percent of the economy, may expand 8.9 percent in the current fiscal year, paced by an 11.3 percent surge in hotels, transport and communications services. The services sector grew 9.1 percent a year earlier.

    link

    27 Feb 2005, 16:32

  263. New Yorker

    Good post. Congratulations!

    One slight fallacy- India was never really supported by the US. All through the Cold War, India was officially isolationist but received favours from the USSR, but was always cold shouldered to the US. In fact, the US even militarily threatened us in 1971 when we were liberating Bangladesh. The US money pumping into Pakistan was primarily if not solely to make sure India has a deterrent in the sub-continent. Thus, India has always been a containment target for the US too, just like China.

    I still think you are a bit too pessimistic about China-Taiwan relations. I for one don’t see the US letting Chen do anything rash to spill over the trouble into conflict. The first flights cross the strait started recently, and economic relations have never been closer. That being said, the President’s name is George W Bush. Had it been John Kerry I would have been 100% sure that there will be no war.

    Hu Zhen Yu

    When I was referring to electronics, I restricted myself to the defence industry and not the white good one. Even so, most of the export quality white goods from China are by Multi National Corporations and not Chinese technology. Even the Chinese firms that do export are by no means ‘cutting edge’ like the Japanese or the Americans. India has these too- ever heard of Videocon or Onida? I guess not.

    If you’re so sure about electronics, how do you explain the better guidance system of PJ-10 Brahmos compared to N-22 Sunburn/Moskit?

    I am aware of Chinese strategy all along. You do not need to explain it to me. I have been arguing this through out my blog. Now I see that you’ve conceded it yourself. I think you need debating lessons.

    27 Feb 2005, 16:47

  264. Iron Farmer

    The reason for the 9.1% growth in agriculture in 2003–04 was a negative growth in 2002–03 due to drought. Generally agricultural growth has been below 3% in India’s context which has slowed the overall growth rate down.

    Well, Japan does possess certain cutting edge weapons, but there are a lot of restrictions imposed upon its military. Having technology does not automatically translate into capability. During war you need the weapons ‘then’, while translating technology into usable weapons need 1–2 years. However, if we are taking into account the US guarantee for the territorial integrity of Japan, then Japan is the strongest in Asia.

    27 Feb 2005, 16:51

  265. New Yorker

    Aruni,

    For the first time you agreed upon the buck of a post of mine, and you showed a positive attitude that has been very appreciated.

    Now that we have talked enough of India and china being competitors or foes, I feel the need to draw your attention to a very important argument, which is that for the sake of the well-being of the Third World countries like India (unless you deny it) and China, we (India and China) should also collabrate to secure room for development and advancement of these countries in this fast globalizing world. Competitions between India and China should not be allowed to such extent as to jeopardize this ultimate goal. This is something like two candidates contend over the leader's position with a party that aims for winning an election. The competition between these two candidates must not lead to the party being rid of the opportunity to win the election.

    The relation between the two countries must be put into the context of the planet for people to really understand what we should and should not do. The First World must not be allowed to exploit the Third World forever. This is actually my best understanding of the world affairs so far.

    27 Feb 2005, 17:30

  266. New Yorker

    I’ll start on a personal note. I have never under-estimated your worth as an intelligent contributor. In fact, in my penultimate post I expressed disappointment at the quality of your previous post. I have come to expect solid posts from you my friend and anything to the contrary is a surprise. Disagreement does not necessitate enmity, as I have been explaining to a good number of people, Hu Zhen Yu being the foremost on my blog.

    On the wider issue you raised, I will repeat a quote I used above from Premier Zhu Rongji in 2002 when he visited New Delhi-

    ‘You are the best in software. We are the best in hardware. If we work together, we can be the best in the world’

    The 2005 premier edition of The Economist contained a special editorial titled ‘The Chindia Story’ with this exact same quote. There is already a loose economic build up between India and China taking place. India imports a lot of China produced manufactured goods, both directly and also through transit countries such as Nepal and Bhutan. On its part, China imports a lot of steel, timber and other raw materials from India. Moreover, when I was doing some research on Indian demographics in China’s business city Shanghai, I found that all (not some, but all) of India’s top IT/ITes companies have a strong presence in Pudong. They are also present in large number is Beijing. Bilateral trade, which was $8bn in 2002 doubled to nearly $15bn in 2004. Prospects are huge, and this is just the start.

    India and China have both had a shining history and then have suffered the evils of imperialism. I have always argued on my blog that India and China have a surprisingly similar history in every aspect. Now the world predicts a bright future for both.

    As the first sentence of my project proposal reads, this is the century of the ancient civilisations of China and India.

    27 Feb 2005, 18:07

  267. New Yorker

    Forgot to mention one thing in my previous post.

    You were unfortunately wrong about me being pessimistic about the issue of Taiwan Strait. Actually, maybe to your surprise or beyond your wildest imagination, China is preparing this war, as the ONLY RESORT to resolve the problem ONCE FOR ALL. We are preparing for fighting on four separate fronts: Japan and US to the southeast, US to the northeast, India (I hope not unless India wants to take advantage of this war for more interests of its own) to the southwest, and maybe a few countries to the west. It would have surprised you a lot if you know what China has achieved militarily within just a few years in the past. China owes a war to the current world order. We win the world order will be re-worked out; or we lose China will fall apart. But that is what China is bound up to do, and we willl do it brave-heartedly and mercilessly.

    There is no peace across the Taiwan Strait until we take Taiwan back. We do not have any other options.

    27 Feb 2005, 18:23

  268. New Yorker

    I don't think China is at the least interested in disrupting its economic growth at the expense of settling the Taiwan issue, at least not for the next 15–20 years. A bitter war would undo all the good work done in China since Deng Xiaoping, and I don't think the CCP would resort to such madness. I recall 1996 when China fired warning missiles over Taiwan during the elections and President Clinton sent in the 7th fleet resulting in China backing down. Moreover, Chen sui bian knows that he cannot count on American support in defending Taiwan unless China attacks without provocation and this will be at the back of his mind.

    Also, China's military build up is definitely impressive (and alarming), but it is not lethal yet. Qualitatively, China is far behind the cutting edge technology of US, Europe and Russia. Any major conventional confrontation with the United States is likely to reduce China's military to rubble. If the war goes nuclear, there will not be a China to speak of at the end of the war. And you're talking about taking on the rest of the world- that would be insanity. I seriously doubt that the CCP would jeapardise the lives of 1.3 billion Chinese people for Taiwan.

    I am very disturbed by your last post. Such proclamation of changing the world order by force, coupled with the massive military build up takes us back to a very specific time in modern history- 1933. The day when a short man by the name of Adolf Hitler took over as Chancellor of Weimar Germany.

    God Forbid, China turn into a Nazi Germany! God help us all if so.

    27 Feb 2005, 18:38

  269. New Yorker

    Aruni,

    You are wrong about this one more time.

    I said China is preparing. All of those countries have the choice of not involving themselves in the reunification war of China. I can gurantee you China will not fire a single bullet at them if they stay away from it, which maybe true for all but Japan.

    Talking about Hitler, Germany was actually cornered to its position to launch the attack, if you know enough about that country's recent history.

    27 Feb 2005, 18:54

  270. New Yorker

    BTW, I do not think that will be nuke war anyways, or it will be a holocaust for all of us.

    27 Feb 2005, 19:02

  271. New Yorker

    Hitler's Germany was provoked?

    As far as I know, Neville Chamberlain flew twice to Germany to personally see Hitler about the Czechoslovakia issue, and then Poland. Hitler even agreed to the document that would bring 'peace in our times' (Quote from Chamberlain). Germany kept on increasing their demands and making the slightest reason an excuse to go to war. Nationalist fervour was also running high in Germany (as in China) and comments about undoing the past injustice of Versailles (as with China and its grudges) was used a lot by the Nazis. I also believe that the Nazis signed the 1929 Nazi-Soviet pact and broke it during Operation Barbarossa in 1941. I believe Hitler said he had no intention to attack the British Empire and then broke that promise in 1940 Operation Sea Lion.

    The ever rising demands, the high blood pressure, the broken promises- is this the China you promise us? If so, then we better unite against it.

    27 Feb 2005, 19:30

  272. New Yorker

    I want to remind you that I did not said what Hitler and Germany did was upright, what I wanted to tell you was that blame should not be completely placed on Hitler and his Germany. I do not know how old you are and if you understand that to make somebody do something you do not have to openly ask him to do that, a smarter way of making that happen is creating the situation that forces him to do what you want him to do so you would have the excuse to defeat him as an enemy. I do not kknow if this sounds too complicated to you. But I am sure you will understand when you get older and experience more in this real world.

    Talking about China. I do not think China will seek to UNDO THE PAST because it is just simply impossible. But China definately needs to take Taiwan back, and at all costs. And any country that wants to fight a war with China that is a perfect opportunity for it.

    Another suggestion for you: when you read history books, do not automatically believe what is written in them, and most important, do not use only one source (e.g., British way of interpreting the history). I believe in their history books, the Opium War has been explained as necessary means to safeguard the interests of their merchants.

    As for "we better unite against it (China)", hehe, I first found it laughable and second let me tell you——-I do not care ! As a matter of fact pretty much the whole world had been united against China and so what ? Has China's course of history been reset ? Is China relatively/comparatively worse off than before 1949?

    It just takes time and pain to learn how to use your own brain to think other than have blind faith in dogmas created by somebody for the best of his own interests.

    27 Feb 2005, 20:30

  273. Hu ZhenYu

    Say China is similar to Nazi Germany, now Aruni shows a true ugly face of an inferior race. Cannot compete, and then telling lies. Comparing China to Nazi Germany is the most evil attack I have ever seen.

    It is a wake up call for China. India is not a friend. India’s misfortune is all from its own mistake. China has been naive for long time, given numerous help to our Africa friends, what we get in return? Nothing! Let’s do not make same mistake with India.

    From discussing with Aruni it is very clear, India is not with us. We have to remember this and carry out our national policy accordingly.

    28 Feb 2005, 01:06

  274. New Yorker

    You missed a crucial ‘if’ in my statement. Only if China turns out to be Nazi Germany-2 should the free world unite to contain such reckless agression. I don’t think it will be one, but your comments regarding Taiwan, if filtering to Beijing’s cadres, could prove disastrous. A peaceful solution of the Taiwan problem is in everybody’s interest.

    Hu Zhen Yu

    How can you say that I am proposing a united world front against China? I would request you to go read my post 266 and then understand the underlying hopes I hold for Asia.

    I was pointing at the prospect of the free world uniting against China if and only if it turns to land grabbing Lebensruam practices of Nazi Germany.

    28 Feb 2005, 11:09

  275. Hu ZhenYu

    What prospect?
    Who give you rights to warn China? Who give you rights to comment on China?

    This kind of warning is a clear attack on China.

    We can say the same thing about India, your aggression on Pakistan, Silkkim, Kasmir. Your development of WMD.
    We can also ask the rest of world united together to prevent India bacome another Nazi Germany.

    US's sanction on India after your test of WMD, should serve a clear warning message to India, stop become Nazi.

    28 Feb 2005, 11:42

  276. Hu Zhen Yu

    The whole point of the discussion is to notch up possible outcomes, not determine who has the right to do what. Don't go down that line, because there is a lot of things on various countries' scorecard across the board about things they had no right to do.

    The US sanctions after 1998 nuclear tests have long been lifted. The US wants to cash in on India's booming economy, there is no way the sanctions hold any good. Last I saw, the EU/US/Australia still have an arms embargo on China (which will be lifted soon). So please don't talk about sanctions.

    India does not seek military solutions to any of its problems. Therefore, the question of the world turning on India does not arise. In any case, none of our disputes e.g., with Pakistan over Kashmir or with China over Aksai Chin (Arunachal is hardly a dispute) are backed up by an insurer third power like the US guarantee to Japan and Taiwan.

    28 Feb 2005, 14:04

  277. Hu ZhenYu

    Why does India develop Weapon of Mass Destruction in 1998? Man you are way too late !
    If you dare to test one more time, I am sure you will get US sanction again.

    You see the whole world treat China India differently.

    After China developed WMD, it is rewarded with a permenent seat in UNSC.
    After India developed WMD, it got immediately a sanction.

    With only one test, you can not develop a working nuclear bomb. Since you do not have enough test data. While we can supply our Pakistan friends with our test data. ( We have already did all the tests we need to do).

    How does Pakistan asured total destrcution feel ???

    28 Feb 2005, 14:24

  278. Hu Zhen Yu

    Although your post touches on insanity, I will let it stay as it does not contain racial or otherwise abuse.

    India blasted its first nuclear devise in 1974. However, since we dubbed it 'peaceful' officially, the US could not impose sanctions on us. It was widely accepted that India has had nuclear weapons since then. In 1998 India blasted a series of nuclear devises in Pokhran and this time did not dub it 'peaceful'.

    PRC was not given UNSC because of nuclear bomb. Given India's refusal to replace RoC on the council, and the growing sympathy between US and China given the Sino-Soviet split, PRC was the most natural candidate.

    Before day dreaming about Pakistan nuking India, perhaps you should worry more about what the 7th fleet would do to the shiny skyscrapers at Pudong if Uncle Sam turns sour over Taiwan.

    28 Feb 2005, 14:46

  279. Hu ZhenYu

    US won't attack Shanghai, it is a demoncratic country with Christian value. But a Muslum mad dog can do every thing.

    China has two made dog, Pakistan and North Korea. We use Pakistan nuke India, North Korea nuke Japan.
    Taiwan will surrender itself.

    28 Feb 2005, 19:24

  280. Hu Zhen Yu

    After your reference to 'black' Indians, now you've resorted to calling Muslims 'mad dogs'. Remember, there are 160 million Indian Muslims and I take offence to that. There are also some Uiguri Muslims under China's jurisdiction. Your statement would entail that you do not consider them Chinese. So why keep holding on to their land?

    The recent peace process between India and Pakistan should be a big blow to your hopes of nuclear warfare in the sub-continent (or should I say delusion)

    01 Mar 2005, 10:18

  281. Hu ZhenYu

    Chinese Muslim are all very nice. They behave nicely and support Chinese communist party. They are peace, they are quiet and they cook good lamb. We Chinese like them.
    Mao ZeDong has given them all the necessary training to integrate them into our society. Every one pass the training program behave nicely, but not every one manage to survive.

    You do not mess up with Chinese communist party, that is no joke.
    If Chinese PLA troop is in Iraq now, I promise you within a year. Iraq will be the safest place on the earth.

    Americans are way too soft in deal with Muslim. You have to understand, Muslims are nut, you have to deal them with hammer. Decisively.
    You need a tough communist leader to deal with religious problem. A decisive elimination for all their leadership, and 10 year iron rule, you eliminate the problem once forever.

    All the religion are evil. People should believe in science and technology.
    We do tolerate, Christian and Buddhism, because they exist are part of culture and living habits. They have been tested by time, and prove to be harmless.

    For all form of extreme religions, like Muslim jihad, our solution is simple, kill them all.

    01 Mar 2005, 10:47

  282. Hu Zhen Yu

    US is finding hard to control Iraq because it cannot kill recklessly to curb violence. Are you suggesting PLA would 'shoot anyone in sight' until entire Iraq is a graveyard?

    If all religions are evil, that should mean that Chinese Buddhists are evil. True?

    If we should only believe in science and technology, why does Stephen Hawking say, 'When we know why, and not how, us and the universe exist that would be the ultimate triumph of human reasoning. For then we would know the mind of God.'

    If Christianity is so tolerant, then which religion did the Taiping follow?

    If Chinese Muslims are all communist, then why is there a separatist movement in Xingjiang?

    I believe as usual you are making sweeping assumptions, with little or no relation to the real world.

    01 Mar 2005, 11:30

  283. Hu ZhenYu

    XinJiang? Do you know who is general Wang Zhen?
    The crazy Muslim did not last a single charge with PLA troop.

    All religions are evil that is true, but at different degree.
    Buddhism and Christian is like smoking bad habits but can be tolerated. Muslim is like Cocaine, must be banned.

    Your vegetarian Indians do not understand what is class struggle.
    Talking between two group of people whole share different value and have fundamentally different understanding of where we come from, where we go, is a waste of time.

    We have a simple solution for a complicated problem. Let's them choose live like other or die with their believe, there is no middle ground.

    01 Mar 2005, 11:51

  284. Hu Zhen Yu

    So, you are supporting a Wang Zhen type treatment to all Muslims?
    Who decides which religions are to be tolerated? Are you referring to a totalitarian dictator?
    How can you say Indians are vegetarians when a large proportion of Hindus do in fact take meat, not even considering Muslims and Christians? Are you passing judgement again?
    So class struggle means eliminating religions? I thought class struggle meant proletariat vs bourgeoisie. Are you famenting a anti-Islamic movement like anti-Semitism?
    Why should Uighurs in Xingjiang live like 'others'? Isn't that their homeland? Who decides what they do if its not them?

    The answer to all these questions is- Nazism

    01 Mar 2005, 12:20

  285. Hu ZhenYu

    Yes, I support Wang Zhen. His swift action is the reason why Muslim can enjoy peaceful wealthy life in China.
    Go to Tibet you will see, Tibetan lives much better life than Indians. Do not compare Mumbai with Shanghai, compare it with Lassa.

    Religious reform, land reform must be done with swift, decisive action. This form the solid base for long term stability and economical growth.
    After that follows, infrastructure, education, and medical care.

    It is better to have a revolution start a new life than die slowly in the Mumbai slum.
    I can not imaging how can you compare Mumbai with Shanghai, while half of people live in Slum, in summer above +40, no air-condition, not even running water.
    Life must be a daily hell there. So fuck the democracy, it is time for revolution.

    We Chinese is now creating a new form of civilization, challenging all existing rules and wisdom.

    01 Mar 2005, 13:09

  286. Hu Zhen Yu

    I am sure Tibetans enjoy the jobs being whisked away by Han migrants with their culture stampled and Uighurs enjoy the vanishing of their language and jobs. Is that why there are frequent bomb blasts in Xingjiang? To express their happiness?

    Shanghai is a planned city. The planning is arbitrary. Moreover, it is a much smaller city than Mumbai. You do not compare a city by the number of scyscrapers, but the worth of the city in terms of business being conducted there. In that area, Mumbai is not at all behind Shanghai even though the latter is a lot more prettier.

    About life in Shanghai vis-a-vis Mumbai, read this article- Looking for Shanghai's soul

    01 Mar 2005, 13:30

  287. Mauritius Yang

    Aruni and ALL others,

    I find it marvellous how is that you are still debating with people who have already clearly shown their racist and facist trueness in last few days. Since day one I felt, and later on confirmed by so many of their own words later on, that what some visitors to your blog in fact simply want to vent their ego in front of you. I would equate the psychology behind all these demonstrations to the adrenaline effects on human behaviour on what we once used to see on TV: English football hooligans after wiining or losing a match.

    It is true that China today is much better than India today, bu tnobody knows what the coming years what will happen. I would like, therefore, to suggest hot blooded people in this blog to try to be more humble, as to behumble is a virtue, in Chinese philosophy as well as in Indian philosophy. Being well one day definitely cannot guarantee eternal smoothness. So, work hard for wellness and get prepared for bad days. It seems to me that when one day we Chinese people become "not well" again, we will have to prepare ourselves to receive boots kickings, for our behaviours today.

    Debates over days remain a presentation of what we PREFERED to receive from media, Indians prefer to hear things in their favour and Chinese prefer things that justify their behaviour today. All these are merely presentation of may be facts seen from 2 different angles, none has succeeded in presenting a truely critical assessment on Indo-China relationship over years. Instead of wastign tme and saliva here debating on undebatable things and getting hotter and hotter, may I suggest 2 sides simply try to read other side's media?

    We al live in one sided infomation environment, all of us are just like blind men feeling elephant. People who have eyes opened are not here, they are up there, frowning on how to contain hooligans and limit damage caused by hooligans down here. Let them get things solved, they have better knowledge of the things, our debates down here are simply creating problem for them to solve the problems in the best interests of us all. Surely they are all patriots up there.

    In this sense I do not find democratic system a better way of governing than authoritarian system. General elections are fooling people to have a false sense of participation, what they elected are nobody but peole "looked good" to them, are they really good or not is out of reach of electoral system, given complexity of human mind. Rose Perot lost US election some years ago because he has big ears, and am sure Amitah Bachan will easily win a parliament seat in India if he wants to. May be india is paying for the price of enjoyign democracy now.

    Bombing India with atomic bombs? Come on, mind your words please. India as a big country deserve to have its own nuclear defense, they deserve bombs as much as we Chinese do. What I did not like is that Indian defense minister Fernandez made use of fictive Chinese nuclear threat to justify his own bombs. Do Chinese hate India? Never, since childhood we were told that India is a fine place where our childlhood hero Monkey King went to.

    Some of the Chinese people writing here do not looked like people well educated in humanity, in spite of their pretension of their fine education background. May be this is one of the many side effects of failures in Chinese moral education that has been hotly criticised recently in Chinese media.

    Aruni, go to Shanghai simply. You will see fine things and people there as well as urglinesses. China is not a paradise, just a DIFFERENT country whose differences may not be that comfortable for you, just accept it, these differences are neither good nor bad, simply different.

    01 Mar 2005, 21:25

  288. stone Liu

    Agree with Yang, we present our opinions each, that's enough. forget about even trying to persuate the opposing side.
    Aruni should visit Shanghai sometime, that definitely would be a fruitful experience. but remember, before you can read Chinese newspapers and talk in Chinese with local people, don't jump to the assumption that "Shanghai has no soul", just like the naive woman who wrote the article you linked above.

    01 Mar 2005, 23:07

  289. Iron Farmer

    ==but the worth of the city in terms of business being conducted there. In that area, Mumbai is not at all behind Shanghai even though the latter is a lot more prettier.
    —"the clubs are full but the streets are deserted there at night. If you're Chinese, you need a permit to enter Shanghai unless you have a job. Shanghai has no soul."

    I think these are typical views from Indians. Mumbai is better,
    Mumbai steets are busier since people after work returns
    to streets even in night time is very crowd, right? 60% homeless?

    02 Mar 2005, 03:52

  290. stone Liu

    "Mumbai steets are busier since people after work returns
    to streets even in night time is very crowd, right? 60% homeless?" —-Iron Farmer

    Oh, Iron Farmer, you got a good point. I'm just wondering why millions western tourists didn't say Shnaghai has no soul while Indians like to say it. They may never seen clean and quiet streets at night. there is no cows wandering on the street, no women pissing by roadsides, no family displaying their living in a wall-less slum shelf by the sides of streets. Shanghai is a boring desert! Where is Shanghai's soul?

    02 Mar 2005, 09:14

  291. Mauritius Yang

    There is a saying in the Bible- ‘Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.’ If someone is racist to another person, he/she is bound to get it back someday. It is not my place to hurl racist abuse, so I just stick to the debates with the likes of Hu Zhen Yu.

    The comment about China being the ‘number one rival’ was made around 3 years back by George Fernandez. At that point, relations between India and Pakistan were at a low ebb and since China is the biggest backer of Pakistan, it was natural for the defence ministry to be wary of China. Since then relations between India and China have greatly improved, and so has trade.

    No matter what people on my blog say, I will definitely go to Shanghai. It is just the matter of finding the funding for the field work. I do not hold any pre-conceived ideas about the city and its people and I will go with the most open mind possible. Today news came out what Wipro, India’s largest IT/ITes company is planning a mega centre in Beijing which I would like to visit some day as well.

    Iron Farmer

    I have conceded above, Shanghai is definitely a better planned and managed city. One of the reasons is because the government can actively control migration and plan the city according to necessity, something which bureaucratic delays make impossible to imitate in Mumbai. In terms of the total contribution to GDP, Shanghai contributes around $60 billion to China’s economy compared to around $50 billion for Greater Mumbai. On a per capita basis, Shanghai is nearly 3 times richer than Mumbai, the figures being around $3,500 and $1,200 respectively. However, we have to keep in mind that Mumbai has a population of 18 million compared to a 12 million figure for Shanghai, with all the consequent problems for distribution of wealth and managing the city. This, despite 60% of residents of Mumbai living in sub-standard housing.

    Shanghai is definitely richer, but not so out of Mumbai’s league that a comparison cannot be made. Especially now, when a revamping of Mumbai is underway.

    02 Mar 2005, 12:46

  292. Iron Farmer

    == reasons is because the government can actively control migration and plan the city according to necessity, something which bureaucratic delays make impossible to imitate in Mumbai. In terms of the total contribution to GDP, Shanghai contributes around $60 billion to China’s economy compared to around $50 billion for Greater Mumbai.

    Allow me to correct you. Shanghai produced GDP $90 billion in 2004, at 13.6% growth rate will be over $100 billion this year. Chinese control migration, so do many developed countries. You are allow to move in only IF you can stand by your very own legs instead of illegally occupy someone else property. In China, every inch of land is own the government, but it divided land relatively even to every citizen. Every farmer has its own farm-land(only right to use, not to sell), its own home(can sell home with the usage of land of that property). Those are tax-free for decades as I know. Farmers initially own nothing in cities, so it is pretty easy for Chinese government to control them. The richest city is ShenZhen, not Shanghai, Shenzhen just rised the minimum paid grossly this year in order to attract more low skill farmers to work for them. I think Shanghai is about the same. Canton(GuangZhuo City reported shortage of lowend labor for last 2 years).

    What India government did is/was plain stupid. One(or ten) farmer(s) or homeless occupied government property(land in Mumbai, assumed) is individual issue, more clearly it is only the individual’s fault. If you let them stay for decades, number accumulated to millions is social issue. Any body, any group, any government or country produce million of homeless in short period will be a trouble in high level, will be state security or international issue.

    03 Mar 2005, 03:17

  293. Iron Farmer

    Shanghai reached $65 billion at the end of 2003

    If we take the projected growth rate to be 12%, by the end of 2004 it would have reached around $72 billion.

    03 Mar 2005, 10:18

  294. Hu ZhenYu

    The Shanghai region is way bigger than Shanghai.

    Right next to Shanghai, with in 200 KM, you found SuZhou, HangZhou, WuXi, they are all top 10 cities of China. The whole Yangzi delta region is one of the biggest industry zone of the world.

    You can better compare Mumbai and Shanghai, with its port size. Shanghai harbour is the biggest of the whole world. I have no idea how many times bigger than Mumbai. Maybe more than 10 times.

    03 Mar 2005, 10:40

  295. If we are including SuZhou, Hangzhou, Wuxi, etc. in the comparison, then we should also include the state in which Mumbai is situated, i.e., Maharahstra. It is India's richest state contributing nearly 1/2 of India's total tax revenue.

    I think we should concentrate on the cities and their suburbs rather than enlarging the area under scrutiny.

    03 Mar 2005, 11:40

  296. Hu ZhenYu

    Do you means Miumbai is India's richest place? Still have 60% people live in Slum?
    What is the poorest place look like?

    If you want to know China better, it is very important to read our communist theory. From Mao's red book to Jiang ZeMing's 3 representitive.

    03 Mar 2005, 12:05

  297. Iron Farmer

    Aruni,

    You can do better than that, your link gave you 2002 numbers. We are 2005, try again in google.com by "Shanghai GDP 2005", add 2005 will filler out 2002 old things.

    101,000 pages for Shanghai GDP 2005. (0.32 seconds)
    link

    ===========2004 GDP Y745 billion(Y8.27 = $1) is $90.1 billion =========
    Chinanews, Jan. 26 – In 2004, Shanghai's economy maintained a high growth rate. According to the audit of the National Bureau of Statistics of China, Shanghai's GDP totaled 745.027 billion Yuan last year. Adjusting for change in price levels, Shanghai's GDP increased by 13.6 percent compared with last year, creating the record growth level since 1996 and keeping double-digit growth rate for 13 years in a row.
    link

    03 Mar 2005, 13:44

  298. stone Liu

    Since Chinese Yuan is a currency seriously undervalued. The GDP of Shanghai, 745 billion Yuan in 2004, valued much more than $90 billion calculated by the official rate 8.27 : 1. Virtually it may valued $130 billion.

    03 Mar 2005, 14:22

  299. ravi kishore

    After reading all these posts,i came to the conclusion that the chinese have some kind of inferiority complex.just look at their posts.All that Aruni said is that" the chinese are right now ahead of us.but we are also catching up ".but look at the responces to that statement.it seems the chinese have a lot of ego problems.

    03 Mar 2005, 14:42

  300. stone Liu

    ravi kishore,

    Thanks for your reading of our posts.
    We are just helping Aruni and other Indians to realize the facts about the two countries. Blindly refusing to recognise facts is a true inferiority complex.

    A person with full confidence on himself gives constructive and informative post in a forum. I see your first post a sour mock , you must have been deeply hurt by the fact we stated. You could have pointed out where you think is our mistake in our posts. But attacking other people's personality only shows your disability and, a disguised inferiority complex.

    03 Mar 2005, 15:16

  301. ravi kishore

    stone lie,

    Thanks for your valuable advice.But it would have been better if you have told this advice to the chinese people here who has lot of ego problems.

    03 Mar 2005, 16:21

  302. New Yorker

    Hi All,

    Found an article you might find it interesting reading, and figured this might be the source of the question "where is Shanghai's soul ?". I will not comment as much as before; instead, I am doing some research on India. And I am even thinking of, time permitting, a trip to Mumbai and other areas in India. But at this stage, I do not know when I will be able to make the trip.

    Aruni,

    This is a pretty long article I posted here. If this appears to be cliché, please delete it.

    An Indian's Epiphany in China

    By Manjeet Kripalani

    Business Week, FEBRUARY 14, 2002

    On my first visit to the Middle Kingdom, the drive for 21st century world-class status I saw was stunning. Still, some things were missing

    From the bridge over the neighborhood known as the Bund, Shanghai rises on either side of the Huangpu River like a magnificently plumed bird on the wing. Before me lies a breathtaking vista: the globe-shaped conference center across the river, the restored colonial buildings, shining glass and granite towers in the distance. Think of New York and Paris and Singapore all rolled into one — but far more impressive. This is my first visit to China, and this will be my lasting impression — a nation that's literally taking flight. One cannot see this without thinking that maybe the 21st century really does belong to China.

    Such feelings aren't confined just to Shanghai. Visit Guangzhou, Beijing, or any one of the innumerable cities that the Chinese have resurrected or re-created, and they all evoke the same sense of wonder. It's hard to even believe another China still exists.

    The other China? The millions of citizens who have been displaced by the building of the Three Gorges Dam, or the peasants in the hinterlands who don't have access to medical care, or the students who aren't allowed to protest, or the contemporary writers and artists who are lucky if they don't end up in jail. Gazing upon Shanghai, that China is subliminal. Here's the China that makes the strongest impression on visitors, with its gleaming, explosive growth.

    HAUGHTY DISDAIN. I didn't know what to expect before I arrived. Having lived in India for the past five years, I feel I've lost the American sense of renewal, and instead adopted, by osmosis, India's ancient attitude of haughty disdain for the nouveau. Indians think little of China's brand of communism, and highly of their own chaotic democracy and freedom. China, they say, can aspire to be like America, but we will aspire to be more like our glorious ancient past, only with computers, cell phones, and movies.

    India is living with that choice. It may have the power of the vote but not the power of investment dollars to fuel significant growth. Direct foreign investment in India is a mere $2.4 billion annually — compared with $45 billion a year for China. But India is in no hurry. It has a sense of timelessness, and renewal through rebirth in another lifetime is enough consolation. An arguable viewpoint, but an expression of traditional Indian philosophy.

    Still, it seems like a day hardly passes without India's competitiveness vs. China coming up on the floor of the Indian Parliament. Last summer, the leading industry association in India, CII, took 10 Indian Parliament members and two union leaders to visit the Middle Kingdom. Indian businesses have been hurting from a flood of cheap Chinese toys, electronic goods, and chemicals that hit the Indian markets in the past year. So industry leaders wanted the politicians and the unions to witness China's economic miracle firsthand.

    to be continued

    03 Mar 2005, 18:12

  303. New Yorker

    "BAMBOO EFFECT." It was a smart move. Just seeing what's happening in China with your own eyes is worth a million reports or speeches. In August, Indian Privatization Minister Arun Shourie made a passionate plea for India to stay the course on economic liberalization for fear that China would "overwhelm" it. That, coupled with China's increasing interest in replicating India's software success, has had what Indian economist Surjit Bhalla calls "the Chinese bamboo effect" on India's collective behind.

    India has finally woken up to the China challenge. The government has since been on a spree, liberalizing infrastructure and privatizing state companies — not fast enough, but movement nonetheless.

    Seeing is indeed believing. The streets of China's big cities are wide, tree-lined, and pristine. It is First World. Every building and factory I saw was equipped with the latest technology. I saw new factories being built in Guangzhou — high-quality construction and superefficient, with one floor being built in 3 days, vs. 11 in India.

    SNAZZIER THAN PARIS. And Shanghai. I rejoiced for the Chinese people when I saw Shanghai — they deserved this pride after decades of communist dreariness. The city seemed more fashionable to me than Paris. O.K., Nanjing Road may not be the Rue Faubourg St. Honore, but it sure is dazzling, with five-star hotel chains, malls featuring six-piece orchestras instead of Muzak, and international designer stores such as Fabergé, Ferragamo, and Ferré.

    Shanghai's French quarter has chic Taiwanese art shops and elite schools. On a sunny Saturday morning in February, the streets are filled with smartly dressed young people. The young men are handsome and carelessly casual, the young women are beautiful, elfin-thin, and cutting-edge trendy. Every nook and corner of the commercial district is crammed with goods — toys, clothes, electronics. Consumerism reigns. A friend explains that because not many Chinese travel the world, they come to Shanghai and expect to see the world there.

    Some friends in Shanghai tried to bring me back to reality. The city is window dressing, they caution, a stage set. The real China is nothing like this. In rural areas, joblessness is common — as are 12-hour days for those lucky enough to find work. Dissent isn't allowed. Traditional Confucian values of obedience have made adapting to Chinese-style communism easier, say local market analysts. Family rules are very strict, obligations and ties to parents are strong, much like India.

    NEW BREED. It's slowly changing. China's youth may not participate in political protests, but a sexual revolution is under way. Young Chinese have become more casual about sex, and pairings not leading to marriage are becoming more common. What's important now is money. And an education — plus a grasp of technology and English — beget money.

    to be continued

    03 Mar 2005, 18:13

  304. New Yorker

    Indian companies have certainly figured out that China means money. Indian info-tech-education companies NIIT and Aptech are already in the Middle Kingdom. On Jan. 22, software developer Satyam opened its first office in Shanghai, and a week before that, while on a trip to India, Chinese Premier Zhu Rongji granted permission to top Indian software company Infosys to hang a shingle in China.

    Stultified Chinese bureaucrats have given way to a new breed that act as if they were ardent entrepreneurs. Professor Hu Hongliang, whose last posting was in China's consulate in New York, is now in charge of setting up software parks across the Middle Kingdom. He's charming, persuasive, accommodating, smart-suited. His officer, Robert Lai, is an American-educated professional who has returned to his native Shanghai after a decade. He has memorized all the statistics about China's infrastructure, and what he doesn't know he finds out in minutes.

    Hu and Lai were a refreshing change from my meeting with Indian diplomats in Shanghai. Sad to say, but visiting the Indian consulate was my most depressing moment in China. The office is stark, adorned with a hidden magazine rack that holds issues of India Perspective — whatever that is. Hanging on the wall was a framed picture of the Taj Mahal, the 16th century Mughal monument to love, and another picture of Indian village belles.

    BEYOND THE TAJ MAHAL. This bothered me: The Chinese who come to India to learn about Indian tech and pharma companies are opening new offices and factories in China — and all one sees at the office of the Indian government in Shanghai is a picture of the Taj Mahal? Dare to mention this dissonance to Indian diplomats, and you're likely to get your head bitten off. "What's wrong with the Taj Mahal?" asks an Indian official with self-righteous hauteur. "Are you trying to deny your heritage?"

    Of course not, I thought wearily. Nor am I denying India the glory of the Taj Mahal. But the new India is much more. It's exportable, Oscar-worthy Bollywood movies, it's a vibrant pop and youth culture, it's IT, its pharma, its great companies like Hero Honda, it's dedicated companies like Tata and Birla, it's ambitious upstarts like Reliance Industries, it's cyberabad Hyderabad.

    to be continued

    03 Mar 2005, 18:15

  305. New Yorker

    Many representatives of that new India are applying their expertise to China's benefit: The head of Coke in China is an expatriate Indian, the head of ICI Paints is Indian, Indians dominate the senior management of Sara Lee and Danone — the list goes on. India is more than village belles and the Taj Mahal.

    So while the Chinese government embraces change, and takes a dressed up, bejeweled Shanghai to the global ball, official India is putting a traditional chador on its most beautiful maidens and making sure Cinderella never makes it out the door. The investment numbers show the winner: Suzie Wong outshines the Taj Mahal any day.

    WHERE THE HEART IS. On the flight home, I review my three days in China. I think of my native city of Bombay, Shanghai's counterpart in India. It's old, it's grubby and crumbling — but it's also cosmopolitan, pulsating, and vibrant. India's soap-box politics are venal but vital. The chaos is creative. That's where the software miracle comes from. Bombay, I think, has heart and soul.

    And then I realized something: I felt little heart and soul in Shanghai. Shanghai was all head, and the head works. The soul may be there, but to a first-time visitor the glitter and consumerism dominate.

    India needs a forward-looking attitude like China's — the vision of the future that shows, through the construction of great cities and efficient factories, what heights the Middle Kingdom can reach. And China needs people like India's — willing to sleep without electricity at night in houses without running water in sole exchange for the right to criticize their government and exercise their vote.

    Maybe someday, in both countries, the two great strengths of Asia — heart and head — will meet.

    03 Mar 2005, 18:15

  306. Ravi kishore

    coming to the topic.what makes India really different from China is private enterprise, homegrown.India has excellent entrepreneurs. China has foreign multinationals. Of course, there is the Chinese diaspora that has made a major difference in manufacturing, but the Indian diaspora is making the difference in services. Over time, the two should cancel each other out, with the Indian diaspora finally contributing to India what the Chinese diaspora has to China. When that external fillip is accounted for, India still has the advantage of a of private enterprise that makes its presence known every now and then in one way or another.I emphasize on entrepreneurship over investment because investment can be made by nationals or foreigners, by the state or by multinationals, but entrepreneurship is driven by individuals who are the product of a system that encourages the freedom of enterprise. It’s a very fundamental view of industrial development, and a credible one.China has done better than India in recent years and all the statistics show that to be the case.The question is: What next? The Chinese model of industrial development is top-down, with the state and foreign investors doing all the investment. The Indian approach has been bottom-up, with domestic enterprise being at the cutting edge.

    India is not outperforming China overall, but it is doing better in certain key areas. That success may enable it to catch up with and perhaps even overtake China. Should that prove to be the case, it will not only demonstrate the importance of homegrown entrepreneurship to long-term economic development; but it will show the limits of the foreign direct
    investment (FDI) dependent approach China is pursuing.

    03 Mar 2005, 18:44

  307. Ravi kishore

    For those who think china and india are different.

    Cultural factors bind India and China

    link

    03 Mar 2005, 19:03

  308. Hu ZhenYu

    Chinese government is better than Indian government.

    It is more competent, it thinks about its people. 25 years reform, it has improved average Chinese people’s life in a way one other government in the human history has ever done.

    03 Mar 2005, 20:12

  309. New Yorker

    Interesting comments, by an Indian, on one of the dimensions of the pervasive caste system: the education in India.

    Did we abolish the caste system? theoretically yes and practically no. When the social caste system was abolished it was re-introduced in a more "potent" version in educational system.

    So we now have different "caste" of schools, ICSE, CBSE and the English Medium Schools for the "Elite's" and the Vernacular Medium schools for the "ordinary" people. All the "elite" bureaucrats and "education" experts say education should be in "Mother Tongue" but send their own children to "English Medium" schools and All the "higher education" is in English medium. Isn't this caste system in a more potent version than the social caste system???

    Now let us look at the effect of Reservation system combined with the Educational caste system. We have seen many people in this forum suggest Reservation system should be abolished. Let us look at who really benefits from the Reservation system. Now suppose if there is 50% reservation for the poor sections of the society in Education, Govt. jobs, because of the caste system in the Education (elite's children studying in English Medium and all the Higher education being in English Medium give them undue advantage) this 50% Reservation for poorer section of the society in practice means 50% reservation in Education and Govt. jobs for the "Elite's" who consists just 15% of the population of India. So who is reservation "really" for?

    Now consider the private sector, there is practically 100% reservation in white collar jobs for upper class people in private sector. Because there is no way the students studying in "Vernacular medium" can compete with "English medium" students, when the medium of instruction for higher education is English, combine this with poor quality of teaching in Govt. run schools means near 100% reservation for upper class in private sector white collar jobs, if this isn't caste system then what is???

    The reservation system should be immediately abolished, and simultaneously the "caste system in education" should also be removed and uniform education syllabus introduced all over India. If English Medium education is good for the "elite's" it is good for the ordinary people of India also. If uniform education system is introduced let's see how many of the so called elite's will be able to compete with the "really brilliant" ordinary people.

    to be continued

    03 Mar 2005, 20:48

  310. New Yorker

    Lot of India's current problems like corruption are related to the existence of above mentioned "Caste system in Education"

    Human intelligence is uniformly distributed irrespective of class, race, religion or social factors and follows the "bell curve", means that, a small number of people in any population will be highly intelligent, most of the people will be of average intelligence and small number may be below average. The incidence of high intelligence is not hereditary, but very random.

    If 85% of India's white collar work force come from just 15% of the upper class people but as per the bell curve theory in any given population there will be only about 5% brilliant people so 5% of 15% how much does that come to? What does this "mean"? It "means" majority of India's so called "brilliant" university graduates are "mediocre" people, who got a "walk over" (with out any real competition) into these citadels of higher education because majority of the brilliant people where "shackled" with vernacular education. If this isn't caste system then what is???

    Do you now understand why all around mediocrity exist in India! What else can we expect when majority of white collar workforce is made up of "mediocre" people who masquerade as brilliant people. These mediocre people has high aspirations because they believe that they are all brilliant people since they did the higher education courses. What happens when "high "aspirations" and "mediocre capabilities" do not match? These mediocre people seek "short cuts" or they turn to "corruption" to achieve their "aspirations" of better life style.

    Mediocrity and corruption goes hand in hand. Because of the mediocre white collar workforce India's national productivity is low, this means that Govt., is not able to collect enough tax to pay higher salary to it's employees. So that does the mediocre employees do? they start collecting their own "tax" or bribes the "short cut" to achieve better life style than one is capable of with their own ability.
    Another "short cut" is to migrate to another country where the living standard is better instead of trying to improve the living standard of own country after getting free university education.

    The mediocrity of the white collar work force and the corruption will continue as long as we practice "CASTE SYSTEM" in Education, as long as the brilliant people are shackled with vernacular medium education in school level when all university education is in English medium.

    As long as the "school" education and "university" education are not in the same language of instruction, the "caste" system will continue and India will not develop.

    If English education is good for upper classes it is good for all the people of India.

    03 Mar 2005, 20:48

  311. New Yorker

    Take a look how the government of India—-the "greatest democracy" in the world—-is held accountable for corruption. Read on…...............

    An international survey has confirmed the public perception that the global construction and arms industries have the greatest propensity to bribe government officials in developing countries.

    In its latest report released last week, Transparency International (TI), a Berlin-based, anti-corruption, non-government organisation, says low public sector salaries are the prime cause of corruption in countries like India, followed by immunity from prosecution. Its survey was carried out by Gallup among some 770 business executives, lawyers, accountants, bankers and officials of chambers of commerce in 14 leading emerging market countries, including India.

    TI ranks India 72nd in a list of 99 "worst corrupt" countries (in which the 99th rank – Cameroon – implies the most corrupt).

    Interestingly, China (including Hong Kong) heads the list of 19 top bribe-giving countries. Italy, Japan, France, Spain, the US, Germany, Belgium, and the UK, all colonisers of yore, figure prominently among the top dozen bribe-givers.

    Former defence secretary NN Vohra disagreed with the diagnosis that low salaries were a cause of corruption: "After the fifth Pay Commission award, no government servant has this excuse."

    Mr Vohra said corruption began with the people heading large establishments, which make hefty purchases. If, for political reasons the head of an institution makes a purchase which gives a cut, it has nothing to do with low salaries, he said.

    But former Chief Justice PN Bhagwati agreed with the report that immunity from prosecution was a major cause. "Corruption exists at very high levels, and there is no certainty of detection. Even if the corrupt get caught, they have virtual immunity since the legal process is tardy and difficult. Not a single person has been prosecuted or punished in the last 10 years though politicians and top bureaucrats were caught red-handed several times," he said.

    Diplomatic sources said agencies like TI are pressure groups, whose aim is to stop multinationals from indulging in competitive bribe-giving. This increases their cost of investment with kickbacks becoming a major component. The US has a law against such practices, which puts its companies at a disadvantage vis-a-vis European and Japanese firms. The Organisation of Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) countries had signed an anti-bribery convention, which came into force last year. This makes bribery of government officials a criminal offence among these rich countries.

    03 Mar 2005, 21:15

  312. Hu ZhenYu

    Let’s make it simple; what India needs is a communist revolution.

    03 Mar 2005, 21:44

  313. Ravi kishore

    Typicall chinese comments.Most of the chinese here are trying to score cheap points.They are not interested in a genuine understanding.all they want to prove is "my govt is better than yours".They are not even able to comprehend that just like any other country(china included) india also has its share of acehivements and failures.we are here not to debate which system is good or bad(i personally give a damn shit whether the chinese want democracy or are happy with the present communisr regime).we are here to understand and learn from each here our respective success and failures and what lessons we can learn from them.There should not be any egos or nationalism invloved in this.That will totally result in scoring cheap points.

    04 Mar 2005, 08:28

  314. New Yorker

    Well, I think Hu ZhenYu has a point above.

    The state of Trivandrum of India has the best primary and secondary education sysyem, the highest literate rate and more equitable land distribution than anywhere else in the country, and it also has the first freely elected communist government of the country.

    Pure coincidence ?

    04 Mar 2005, 13:10

  315. Ravi kishore

    First of all,let me clarify something.Trinamdrum is not a state.The state is kerala and trivendrum is its capital city.Yes it has good social indicators.but its not because of the communist policies.many more factors are involved in it.and one more thing,the govt in kerala is not just a communist one,its the world's first and probably the only democratically elected communist govt.The fact that even hardcore communists also have take democratic route to attain power(and not through revolutions or through voilence which is common in communist countries) in India says a lot about our soceity.

    .

    04 Mar 2005, 15:01

  316. Hu ZhenYu

    I think the foudamental problem of India is

    India is a nation of "bla bla bla bla ".

    04 Mar 2005, 15:42

  317. New Yorker

    I am fed up with the so called "democratic" shit. I do not give it a damn if it can not make people live better or the country develop better. I think you Indians need to do more reading of those original works on the Democracy as a political system authored by respected scholars, who unexceptionally put a few limitations and prerequisites on the democratic political system. As I mentioned in one of my posts above, neither India nor China meet those prerequisites at this time. We have our own right to choose our own political system as you have chosen the democracy.

    My personal view of the Indian democracy is that it is not best suitable for the advancement of the country for the time being. But still, that is fine with me that is absolutely up to the people of India. I have seen too much cursing, in a self-important and arrogant way, on China's political system in India's media, and most people see China under microscope in a picky way, that is also fine with me. But do not curse simply because that does not have a shit to do with you Indian people, that is our choice. Only time will prove it right or wrong, as it has proved up to date that both countries started off pretty much at the same level and ends up with one much ahead of the other. You also have the right to deny it, and I do not give it a shit either.

    Thanks for pointing out a mistake of mine in confusing Trinamdrum with a state. But I also want to point it out that in a democracy the majority of people can be fooled to surrender their rights to an obligarchy, which is mostly seen in Asia and South America.

    04 Mar 2005, 15:51

  318. Ravi kishore

    Hu Zhen Yu

    If u dont know what to say,then please shut ur mouth rather than giving idiotic one liners.The problem with the chinese is as a culture and as a soceity they dont know how to take decisions through consensus.Throught their history decisions are always taken by using force from the top.so its not suprising that chinese do not have an iota of what a " frank debate" does to a soceity or what a "democracy" does to a country.

    04 Mar 2005, 17:47

  319. Ravi kishore

    New yorker,

    Democracy has its own faults,i agree with that.( i beleive most chinese at least in this forum think that it does not matter whether its democracy or dictatorship that runs the country.all it matters is whether they are serving the people or not).so even from your economic point of view democracy is always better because democracy is a powerful tool for inducing transparency and accountability in economic policy.we all know the corruption in china.the problem is so serious that they have capital punishment for corrupt officials.India also has much corruption.but it is less when compared to china according to transparency international.The reason is we have checks and balances in our system which helps in checking corruption.Another fall out of democracy is we have an independent media which keeps a careful watch on these issues.Just look out the no.of reports in indian media about corruption and how how they go after it.and know see the chinese media(if there is one).all they do is to support the decisions of the politbuero.

    As you said its the people who should decide whether they are happy with the democracy or collective dictatorship.But one point.If anybody in this world think that they can have a free economy but can control people's ideas from the top(like in china) they are living in fools paradise.There will be a time when the CPC has to initaiate its own glaznost and at the same time make sure that the country does not fall apart.

    04 Mar 2005, 18:15

  320. New Yorker

    Ravi Kishore

    Partly true. Unlike you Indians, we at least Made some decisions without wasting too much time debating. Your debating in your country is very FRANKLY by tatally circumventing the caste system and the appalling social inequality, and above all, no decisions can be made. The problem with the Indians is that after so many years of British reigh, they have completely lost the ability of decision making and acting, because it used to be the British masters that made all decisons for them and told them what they needed to do.

    Your stupid "democracy" can only guarantee you one thing: the blah blan blah, and nothing will happen !

    04 Mar 2005, 18:21

  321. New Yorker

    Ravi Kishore,

    Did you hear your politicians crying that ".........the best way to be remembered is to transform Mumbai to Shanghai….........and the best way of doing that is by demolishing slums…........."? Why are Indians doing this ? Can you guys frankly debate out a better solution to advance your Mumbai, the biggest slum city in the world ? Why do you want to compare Mumbai against Shanghai ? It is a shame on all Chinese that the image of Shanghai will be mimicked by such a filthy and ugly place like Mumbai !

    Use your stupid brain and think out a better way to deal with your own problems, would you ???

    04 Mar 2005, 18:31

  322. New Yorker

    Ravi Kishore,

    I was offensive your last generalizing comments about all Chinese. You might want to watch your wording if you do not want to turn Aruni's blog into a battle field, just like many Indian forums that are full of extremely racist posts.

    It is true that both Indian and China have serious corruption problems, which are, however, dealt with quite differently. According to TI report, for the last 10 years mutiple detection of curruption by high ranked govt officials were revealed but none of them were prosecuted. In China, thousands of currupt officials are arrested, prosecuted, and some of them are excuted. You do not know this because you rely on the one sided source of information—-the western media. I reckon you do not know the Chinese language and therefore can not grasp the truth about the corruption situation in China although this is not your fault. I however can go online and search for info provided by media in India thanks to your social promotion of English speaking. I am not relying on one source, I use mutiple sources from North America, Europe and Asia (including India). I do think, in fairness, I know India better than you know China.

    04 Mar 2005, 18:42

  323. New Yorker

    By ignoring the basic arguments of the Mumbai slums issue, you are undermining your own previous efforts as a debater. Shanghai has achieved a lot as a business city, and one of the reasons is solid infrastructure. That is what we are trying to achieve in Mumbai as well- do not take it as a mere imitation. Mumbai has its own very distinct character as a city- and the fact that it is overpopulated and hence the slums needs to be corrected. Of course, unlike China and any other dictatorship, we have to move carefully and uproot only what is illegal property. We cannot simply pay scanty compensation/no compensation and throw them out of the city.

    You are also ignoring the basic facts about Indian society. Caste remains a problem only in remote rural areas. As I mentioned, India’s last President was from a low caste background and one of India’s most recent Prime Ministers was also from a similar background. India has all the makings for a basic meritocratic societies.

    The argument about British colonialism and its legacy over Indian mentality has been proven to be incorrect to the same extent as it can be applied to China. We did borrow a lot from Britain when forming our political system, but so did China from USSR. Yes Indians do speak English and their own languages, but if that is so bad then why is China desperate to increase its English proficiency? It is profitable to speak English in the business world and no one can deny it. It is a two lane road, and looking at just one side of the coin spells hypocrisy.

    Ravi does make a point when he argues about China’s need to always be led by a centralised authority which is usual brutal in its means. How can you argue to the contrary?

    Finally, my blog will not have any racist comments, as Hu Zhen Yu’s deleted messages show evidently. I hope to keep this debate strictly civil. So far the users have been great and I hope it continues this way.

    04 Mar 2005, 18:50

  324. New Yorker

    To All Indians in this blog:

    The following comments, by a traveler from Canada, on his impressions of India may help you better understand how India is viewed by part of the rest of the world.

    Impressions of India in 2000

    Poverty and religion
    India offers the tourist a wide range of impressive sites to visit but the problems that crush it blot out the splendor of its monuments and temples.

    India is a poor country. Sixty percent of Indians survive with less than 60 US$ a year; 30 percent can spend up to 180 US$ a year and only four percent have more than that. Only one percent of the population earns enough (more than 1000 US$/year), to pay income tax while taxpayers reach 60 percent in developed countries. (Agriculture is exempt from tax). Three out of four Indians live in villages where traditional religious values still dominate and make them accept anything without complaining. The middle-class, which is a majority in developed countries, represents only 10 to 20 percent here depending on the criteria used. Industrial capital is owned either by the State or by an oligarchy of great families such as the Tata, Mahindra, Birla, Bajaj etc. Half of the population is still illiterate and almost a third of it lives below the poverty line which is defined here as a food intake of 2200 calories per day.

    These numbers are indicative of the poverty of the Indian masses but one has to go there to see the misery of hordes of skeletal, ulcerated or crippled beggars, to grasp the extent of the problem. I have stayed in many a dump in the course of my backpacking adventures but I must say that India gets the first prize for the unhealthiness, filth and stench of its crowded slums where the homeless camp out on sidewalks and in vacant lots. And on top of that, sacred cows feeding on garbage heaps at every street corner, whose dung is gathered to be used as fuel for cooking food. And everywhere, the big red splashes of betel nut chewers' spittle…

    04 Mar 2005, 18:58

  325. New Yorker

    Life here is so difficult that the people in the streets see all tourists as walking banks. Strangers are immediately targeted by honnest beggars who ask openly, and by the crafty ones who first engage a personal conversation before formulating their demands when they feel their victim's defenses are down. It is a pity. Harassment by these predators puts off visitors and reduces their availability for authentic exchanges.

    In Varanasi, I spent an afternoon in the library of the Baranas Hindu University perusing books on poverty in India to try to understand. The situation was cleverly analyzed, blame was cast on overpopulation (failure of birth control), illiteracy, corruption, the International Monetary Fund, America, globalization and a million other causes but nothing, in that inner sanctum of Hindu thought, pointed the finger to the caste system.

    Also in Varanasi, I met a European couple heaping praise on the piousness and religious devotion of the Hindus whose "spiritual life was so intense and profound that it had become more important for them than the material hardships they had to endure". They had inadvertently put the finger on part of the problem of poverty in India: the apathy of the interested parties.

    The Hindus with whom I've been able to talk about this, confirmed that more than 95% of the people were actively religious and did not fail to pray to their favorite gods at least once every day. They also recognized that caste discrimination was still commonly practiced and explained that it was borne without revolt because the underprivileged believed that their misfortune had been earned by their own inadequate behavior in their previous lives. According to that belief, to attempt to improve one's lot in the current life would be tantamount to challenging the will of the gods. Thus, the illiterate and underprivileged majority have no other choice than to endure extreme social inequalities without revolt so as to earn a better life in a subsequent existence. This kind of fatalism is much more demotivating than the Islamic "Inch' Allah", because the Muslim is at least allowed to hope that Allah might consent that he succeed in improving his lot.

    Religion and the caste system
    India is a land of believers. All Indians take religion quite seriously whatever their faith (Hindu 82%, Muslim 12%, Christian 2%, Sikh 2%, Buddhist 1%, Jain 1% or Parsee). Freedom of religion is garanteed by the constitution that established a secular state when India became independent in 1948.

    The Hindu religion does not feature fixed dogmas like the revealed Christian, Islamic and Jewish religions. It is rather a system of interrelated spiritual and social beliefs that has evolved over the past 3000 years (or 4000 years if its origins are traced back to the pre-aryan culture that flourished from 2500 to 1500 BC at Moenjo Daro and Harrapa in the Indus valley). The Hindu system is made up of many sects and cults and its pantheon is said to comprise 330 million deities.

    04 Mar 2005, 18:59

  326. New Yorker

    Some educated Hindus hold the view that these deities and spirits are all diverse manifestations of the same unique God which is also the God of Muslims, Christians and Jews. They recognise however that this belief is held only by a small minority and that the vast majority of Hindus believe quite litterally in the myths and legends they have been taught about the various deities they worship.

    Education, litteracy and the right to worship in braminical temples are in practice reserved for high caste members. The Brahmins claim that the lower castes are part of the Hindu system but the latter do not know the mainstream Hindu gods and they worship their own local gods which they associate with their everyday village life. For example, the Dravidians in the south worship Potaraju the protector of the fields and crops, Polimeramma the protectress of the village, Pochaama the protectress of health, Kattamaisamma the guardian of the water supply for irrigation etc, gods unknown to the Brahmins.

    Even today, the overwhelming majority of the people are pigeon-holed into innumerable castes and sub-castes according to their occupation and region of origin, effectively fragmenting them into small isolated groups. Caste members are forbidden to marry outside of their caste or to eat at the same table with anyone of a lower caste. In a southern village for example, the Brahmin would direct the rituals of religious ceremonies, the Kshatryas would administer and the Banias speculate and control commerce while the Kaapu do the ploughing, the Kurumaas and Golaas raise sheep, the Goudaas collect toddy (palm sap) to make sugar, the Chakali wash clothes, the Chandelas make shoes and, at the very bottom of the scale, the untouchable Maalas and Maaligaas handle the dead or work leather.

    Naturally, the Brahmin, Kshatrya and Banias of the village own the most land. They control the village panchayat (local government), and exert an overwhelming political influence on the lower caste villagers for they are also the money lenders everyone is indebted to.

    This caste system and belief in the migration of the soul through endless cycles of rebirths (samsara) distinguish Hinduism from other polytheist and animist religions that were widespread in the millenium before our era (Egypt, Greece, Rome, Aborigines in the Americas and Autralia) and that are still practiced in remote areas of Africa and South-East Asia.

    04 Mar 2005, 18:59

  327. New Yorker

    According to the Hindu system, the quality of one's current life is the direct result of good or bad behaviour in past lives. This theory of successive reincarnations allows the rich and powerful to believe that the privileges they enjoy have been earned by an accumulation of positive karma during their exemplary preceding lives. It is the official consecration of social inequalities by the gods, the lower castes and the untouchables having deserved their misery by their own bad conduct in past lives. Consequently, the powerful are encouraged to believe that they can do no wrong. That explains the hardness of inter-class social relations in India and also why corruption is so widespread in that country in spite of some efforts by the government to combat it. ( More on corruption in India.)

    Castes and politics
    India's social and political evolution was retarded by the caste system that effectively fractionated any forces that could have possibly challenged the supremacy of the competing Brahmin and Kshatrya castes. Buddhism had managed to cut through caste distinctions and provide a common vision of India during Emperor Asoka's reign that unified most of the subcontinent around 250 BC. (Gautama Sakyamuni and Asoka were Kshatryas and so was Manohir who founded Jainism also around 500 BC).The importance of castes held in check during three centuries but the influence of the Brahmins grew as the original Hinayana Buddhism evolved into the Mahayana form and lost popular favour around 200 AD. The Brahmins then regained an even tighter control on peoples minds and the caste system was further developped to ensure their social supremacy in the following centuries. India had to wait until the struggle for independence led by Mahatma Gandhi and Jawaharlal Nehru to find a common cause able to cut through caste barriers and mobilise all strata of the Indian society.

    Nehru's pragmatic socialism and Gandhi's disinterested holiness launched independent India on a sea of optimistic idealism, trusting that secular state capitalism and pro-active support of the disadvantaged castes (Dalits) would promote the development of democratic reform of the power structure. In practice however, the actions of the Congress Party corresponded less and less to its rhetoric.

    Investment for economic development did not go to agricultural infrastructures which would have benefited 80 % of the population but was diverted to state owned heavy industry, creating more government jobs for the already favoured middle class. During the same period, investment in education went mainly to develop higher education facilities for the so-called middle class rather than to provide primary schooling to reduce illiteracy in the villages. (Now, India sends 6 times more people to universities than China does while 52% of Indians are still illiterate compared to less than 17% in China).

    04 Mar 2005, 19:00

  328. New Yorker

    Nehru's death in 1964 marked the end of the Gandhi-Nehru moral leadership. Indira Gandhi benefited from the Gandhi-Nehru legacy but corruption scandals soon devastated that ethic and idealism was no longer a value in public life. After her assasination in 1984, her son, Rajiv, reluctantly succeeded her but he fell in 1989 following huge corruption scandals (the Marutti and Bofors affairs). India's politics had definitely entered the no-holds-barred struggle for power mode that still characterises it to-day.

    At first glance, there seems to be a certain form of democracy in India. The press appears free and anyone can follow the complex games of a political scene where almost 40 parties vie for power on the federal and regional levels. This, however, is only illusion for the political class is still largely controlled by the Brahmins.

    India and China were more or less at the same level of economic development when they took on the control of their own destinies 50 years ago. India preserved the democratic heritage of the British but its close ties with the Soviet Union made its bureaucracy more cumbersome and proved once more the inefficiency of state capitalism, protected from competition in a planned economy.

    Today, there is a sharp contrast between China whose remarkable economic boom has changed the life of all its citizens and India, where the benefits of growth have gone mainly to a small high-caste minority, leaving the lower castes poor and illiterate like they were 50 years ago. Today, China is seeking its own way towards a greater liberalisation while in India the growth of a fundamentalist Hindu nationalism seeks to reinforce high caste privileges.

    The Indian constitution guarantees a secular state but recent proposals to redraft it cause deep concern to the Muslim minority. It is common knowledge that the Bharatiya Janath Party (BJP) that controls the National Democratic Alliance (NDA) in power for the last two years, emanates from the politico-religious right-wing RSS (Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh) founded in 1925 by the Hindu nationalist Keshav Baliram Hegewar to promote the interests of the Brahmin caste in the British Raj. The Hindu fanatic Nathuram Ghose who assasinated Gandhi was tied up with the RSS and so were the religious extremists who destroyed Ayodhya's Babri mosque in 1992.

    Today, the RSS operates and extends its influence through benevolent institutions in education, health and mutual help between Hindus. Thereare 75 of these institutions and they are strategically dispersed all over the sub-continent. The movement has broadened its base in the last decade by allowing certain non-Brahmin Hindus to join its 30 000 local "Shakhas" which are local sport and physical training centers whose members wear a uniform (white shirts and khaki shorts). The RSS, which represents a considerable force, makes no bones about its ultimate goal of "One Nation, one People, one Culture" which is strikingly similar to the infamous "Ein Volk, ein Führer" of the thirties.

    There is cause for apprehension. The partisans of a Hindu fundamentalist fascism are waiting in the sidelines and are prepared to go on-stage if given half a chance. A serious economic crisis and a triggering event like the Reichstag fire could be all that is missing for history to repeat itself at the expense of Muslim Indians and of Pakistan. After the Balkan religious wars, we could witness another one between Hindus and Muslims in the 21st century!

    04 Mar 2005, 19:01

  329. New Yorker

    Personally I would give a low probability to this dramatic scenario for I trust in the common sense of the Indian electorate which should be called to the polls again in 2003. Nevertheless, a possibility, however minimal, of a religious conflict that could become nuclear is absolutely intolerable!

    All the Indians that I was able to question on politics expressed their dissatisfaction with the government and complained about the reign of corruption at the central and state levels. Those I met naturally belonged to the so-called middle class for I do not speak the local languages that I would have needed to sample the opinions of the poor majority who continue voting for politicians that do not promote their interests. That situation could change if these people wake up and free themselves from the religious and political manipulation that has kept them subservient.

    It could happen. India is the land of the faithful today, but minds can change very quickly when the time is ripe for a change. Even well brainwashed minds. I know for I lived through such a mental revolution from 1960 to 1965 when priest ridden Quebec threw out the Catholic Church whose excessive power caused their downfall.

    I would never attempt to predict what will happen in India in the next decade but I think that the present situation is highly unstable and that it can not last very long. Will the Hindu fundamentalists make a clean bid for still more power or will the "unwashed masses" liberate themselves from the Hindu and caste beliefs that bind them?

    In spite of the negative aspects of its religion and castes, India remains a fascinating country that must be visited. The world should make the effort to get to know it better, even if only for its numerical importance. There will be more Indians than Chinese on our planets around 2020. We are therefore all concerned by what is really going on there.

    Bibliography

    Akbar M.J.: India: The Siege Within
    Allchin B. & R.: The Birth of Indian Civilisation
    Ambekdar, Dr. Babasaheb:
    — Who Were the Shudras, How they came to be the Fourth Varna
    — The Untouchables, Who Were They and Why They Became Untouchables
    Bharucha Rustom: The Question of Faith
    Ghurye G.S.: Caste and Race in India
    Hasnain Nadeem: Indian Anthropology
    Kancha Ilaiah: Why I am not a Hindu
    Varma Pavan K.: The Great Indian Middle Class
    Selbourne D.: An Eye to India, The Unmasking of a Tyranny
    Srinivasachari Sastri: Advanced History of India
    Thapar Romila: Interpreting Early India

    04 Mar 2005, 19:01

  330. Ravi kishore

    New yorker

    while you accuse me of being a racist,you have no problem with posting useless anti-indian articles which in no way are related to the topic.For your information let me tell you that we indians give a damn shit about what "outsiders",(which includes the arrogant whites and the hypocritical yellows tow-toying them) think about us.As long as we are sure we are doing the right thing,we need not care about what "outsiders" think about us.

    and my friend,even i can post "n" number of articles not only about how "outsiders" think about the chinese,but also how the han chinese themselves think about their own country.BUt i think that will prove nothing,other than scoring cheap points.so i will refrain from that.

    And their is nothing "offensive" when i said that their is a possibility of the communist party in china collapsing.I will tell you the reasons.

    Among the structural problems facing the Chinese economy, stagnation of the state-owned sector is particularly serious. Low efficiency is a common problem of state-owned enterprises everywhere, and in China the poor performance of state-owned enterprises has contrasted sharply with the dynamism in the newly emerging private sector. China has no choice but to privatize the large enterprises as well, which would amount to abandoning public ownership completely. The Communist Party may then lose its legitimacy to rule and find it difficult to maintain the status quo of a one-party dictatorship. In terms of Marxian dialectics, China's success in its transition to a market economy, and thus economic development, hinges crucially on how the growing contradiction between the economic base and the superstructure can be resolved.

    Until now, although China has maintained a one-party dictatorship, it has been steadily giving up the traditional socialist economic system based on economic planning and public ownership of the means of production. The demand for democracy has been increasing along with incomes, however, while the reputation of the Communist Party has been badly hurt by widespread corruption among government officials and a rising crime rate. The policy mix of economic liberalization and political dictatorship has reached its limit. the Communist Party needs to reform itself or it will face grave consequences.Even though the Communist Party in china has managed to survive into the 21st century, few people even within the Party truly believe in communism. For the Chinese leadership, communism is still a means to stay in power, but for the Chinese people, it is neither a means nor an end. While the idea of "peaceful evolution," whereby democratization leads to the demise of the communist regime and the transition to a capitalist system, scares the Chinese Communist Party, it is probably the best scenario if China is to avoid the kind of turmoil that accompanied the collapse of the Soviet Union.

    Regards

    04 Mar 2005, 20:29

  331. stone Liu

    "India also has much corruption.but it is less when compared to china according to transparency international." —-Ravi kishore

    Ravi kishore, how can I say? I would like to believe that you had a bad memory rather than that you are lying. According to Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index 2004, China ranks 71st with a score 3.4, while India ranks 90th with a score 2.8. Obviously India has much more serious corruption problem than China. Did your democracy system do the job? see this link for Transparency International's index: link

    Ironically, in the year 1997, China and India got quite similiar score, China 2.88 vs India 2.75. But China improved her score steadily all through these year. from 2001 to 2004, China scored 3.4 to 3.5, while India remained around 2.7 to 2.8. check this link for more details: link

    All of your blah blah blah turn out to be groundless.

    05 Mar 2005, 00:34

  332. Iron Farmer

    The point is that then can not live on facts, it is not a case they dont have access to information.

    05 Mar 2005, 02:59

  333. Ravi kishore

    stone liu,

    Look who is talking!just because i got my facts wrong in one instance does not make my other arguments invalid.Even according to you china is still in 70 position,hardly a privileged one,considering that the chinese has tough punnishment including capital punnishment for corrupt officials.If even after that strict action and so many deaths,if still china is in the 50+ group,then that tells how rotten that system is.

    But anyway,thank you for correcting me.

    05 Mar 2005, 05:03

  334. Ravi kishore

    iron farmer,

    The difference between indian and chinese is that the indians are gracious enough to admit their mistakes if any,with out any ego problems.But the chinese somehow(i dont know why,may be because of ego problems,national pride etc etc)refuse to admit their faults and keep on parroting the same arguments even if the arguments get discredited.Instead of understanding the essence of the other side's argument,the chinese always try to pick up holes in them and try to divert the topic.
    Typical chinese attitude,i guss.

    Regards

    05 Mar 2005, 05:17

  335. A Chinese

    Hi Ravi:

    Regarding your message#334, you keep saying Chinese has ego problem, and this shows that you are confused the ego with self-esteem. What we Chinese show here is called self-esteem, not ego. On the contrary, What you India guys show here is really called ego but nothing else. Based on my reading and debating on this blog so far, I have an impression that you India guys are very good at talking something in the air which clearly has no basis and when what said got blowed by us, you simply change the topic and say something else, totally ignoring the facts presented in front of your face and you guys shows no courage to accept the truths. It looks like that your Indians somehow live in the world of your own creation, and this is an clear symptom of ego problem. If this problem turns out to the psyche of the whole nation, then nobody can save you and your country.

    I am strongly suggest you to read an Article written by Dhiru Shah, and the title is "Kaleidoscope of Modern Indian Psyche", and you can find this article from the following link:
    link

    The following is what I quote from this article regarding your ego problem:

    =============================================================
    …...
    In order to understand the present downfall of our society, one needs to analyze the psyche of the 21st Century educated Indians who on average reveal the following major traits.
    Ego: Most humans develop ego sense in varying degrees irrespective of their religions, nationalities, race or creed. Ego should not be confused with self-esteem which every human being should have in order to develop a healthy positive mental attitude in life. Even though our scriptures including Bhagavad Gita spell out clearly the adverse effect of an inflated ego sense, surprisingly many of us suffer from it. Most think that they are omniscient and therefore do not need to know any thing more. They want their views to be accepted by others without questioning which makes any rational discussion difficult, if not impossible. Further, our ego leads us to demand the leadership role in any social or political activity we undertake irrespective of our capabilities. And in case of its denial, we may not even hesitate to destroy or seriously damage the very group/institution/society we represent. In fact, this is the prime cause for proliferation of different panths, societies, associations and groups all over the world leading to disunity amongst us. At times, even national interests are compromised by many to nourish their ego sense.

    =============================================================
    (To be continued..)

    05 Mar 2005, 07:17

  336. A Chinese

    Other major traits reveled in this article though analyzing the psyche of the 21st Century educated Indians are as follows:
    ==================================================================================

    Ignorance: Our knowledge of India history, culture, and traditions is mostly confined to whatever little we have learnt during our school days. Many of us are just not interested in knowing our roots or ancient past. In our warped priorities we have time for Hindi movies but none to attend any meeting or discussion where information and knowledge about India are discussed. We like to live in a world of self-inflicted ignorance. Not only that we are ignorant of other religions but also of our own religion. Our knowledge of religion is confined mainly to a few rituals. We think that Vedas and Upanishads are boring and are meant for priests only. Most derive their knowledge of other religions primarily from the secondary sources which in turn leads us to believe in some idiotic jargons like all religions are the same. This is due to the incorrect translation of Dharma into religion.

    Self-centeredness and Indifference: Though all humans tend to be selfish, we seem to outsmart others in this particular human trait. Our only concern is for self and the nearest family. Excepting paying lip service, we neither care nor devote any time, money, and efforts for our community, society or nation. We are so much preoccupied with our happiness that we are totally oblivious and indifferent to the sufferings of our fellow beings. There is always an yawning gulf between precept and practice. In our constant longing for material happiness, we have no qualms to practice corruption in all walks of life. That is why India has become today one of the most corrupt countries in the world.

    Low Self-Esteem and lack of National pride: Though India became physically free from the colonial rule fifty years ago, we have still not been able to unshackle our minds from one thousand years of slavery. The distorted history of India taught in our schools/colleges depicts our religion, culture, and history as primitive and of no consequence which creates an impression in our mind that all knowledge and culture in the world originated from the Greeks and Europeans only and our forefathers contributions were minimal. The resultant low self-esteem develops an inferiority complex in us to such an extent that even well educated Indians living in the US many times insist on a stamp of approval from the West before accepting the contribution in any field from their fellow Indians The lack of national pride and patriotism amongst us is partly the result of the low self-esteem we have about ourselves. When hundreds of our fellow beings are frequently getting killed in Kashmir and other parts of India by the Islamic and Christian terrorists, there is not even a murmur from the majority of us. It is said that when Rome was burning, Nero was playing the fiddle. Similarly, when India is on the verge of getting Balkanized, most Indians are totally engrossed in seeking pleasure and happiness of the material world and completely oblivious to the fate of their motherland.
    ===================================================================================
    (To be continued…)

    05 Mar 2005, 07:19

  337. A Chinese

    ============================================================================================================

    Docility and appeasement: Centuries of slavery has made many of us docile, spineless, and without courage. Most Indians are not willing to fight even if their cause is just and right. During the Islamic rule millions of Indians were massacred and millions were converted to Islam under sword. The effect of coercion, brutalization, and dehumanization by the Muslim and European rulers over such a long period of time have left many of us in a psychological state of denial which happens to all victims of oppression. Instead of fighting back the oppressors, some time these victims support them(oppressors) in order to save themselves from further abuses. Many are still suffering from this mental disorder. (To be continued…)

    Negative attitude towards physical work: Psychologically, most Indians have aversion to physical work in any form including fitness exercises. People who invented Yoga and martial arts are today completely physically unfit. Most find pleasure and happiness in eating, drinking, gossiping, and seeing movies. This has a direct bearing on our miserable performance in every field of competitive sports. It is a shame that a nation of one billion people cannot produce even one individual who can win a gold medal in Olympics for the country. Compounding these problems is the distorted concept of non-violence preached by the Gandhians as well as some Hindu, Jain and Buddhist religious leaders. This is totally against the message of Bhagvad Gita which abhors tolerance of Adharma. The effect of these two factors has been deadly. Instead of defending a legitimate cause, we talk about peace, tolerance and non-violence and try to appease our enemies even if it means death, destruction and humiliation of our community, society, and nation. The current Pakistani sponsored Islamic terrorism in J&K and other parts of India is a solid example of our policy of appeasement. More than 35,000 people have been killed in J&K alone and more are getting killed every day and about 700,000 Kashmiri Hindus have been driven out from their ancestral home land. And still there is no alarm and urgency in our minds. Instead of destroying ruthlessly the terrorists and their camps across the LOC, the Indian government indulges in the exercise of talking with some of these confirmed terrorists. No other country or people in the world would have tolerated this type of terrorism and ethnic cleansing within their own borders.

    =============================================================================================================

    Hope this articale will lift your head from sands and help you understand some of your own problems including the ego.

    Regards,

    A Chinese

    05 Mar 2005, 07:26

  338. Ravi kishore

    A chinese(comon,the fact that ur hiding ur name behind ur nation is itself proff that here nationalism is involved than anything else)

    The fact that the pasted article you have posted is written by an indian itself proves my point.we indians,unlike the chinese have a remarkable ability to analyze our own things and correct them if there are any faults in them..Chinese have nothing in comparable.All they do is sheild their soceity from questining and then start throughing stones at other people's houses.

    And what this habit of the chinese in this forum to post irrevelant articles here.obviously we indians dont need chinese to know what is wrong with us indians,because we ourself do that job anyway.
    but the chinese definetely needs some outside push to rectify their mistakes because it seems that the chinese are incapable to even acknowledge them,let alone rectifying their mistakes.

    I guss we are diverting from the main issue.But i am not responcible.its the chinese who started this first by lecturing us.

    And why do the chinese in this forum hide behind names like "a chinese" "new yorker" "iron farmer" etc.are you people ashamed of ur names.Dont take it personally,its just that i am little bit curious.

    Regards

    05 Mar 2005, 08:00

  339. Ravi kishore

    To

    A chinese(what ever ur name is)

    if you want to "analyze" your own soceity u can check out this book.

    "Beyond the Chinese Face:Insights from Psychology" by Michael Harris Bond.Its very informative.

    are there any "analyzes" of the chinese pysche by chinese themselves.are there any books which can make us "ignorant" indians understand the chinese "phyche"?

    That would be helpful for me.

    05 Mar 2005, 08:10

  340. stone Liu

    Ravi kishore, you said Chinese don't critisize themself and don't analysize their own psyche, etc. I would say, again you were jumping to groundless assumption.

    I admit there is some difficulty for you to access the informations you urged above, because nearly all of them are written in Chinese, our own language, rather than a remaining colonial language. try 中国人的心理 (Chinese psyche) in Google for Simplified Chinese you get 758000 results. just in the first page of the google results you find two books:
    《中国人审美心理研究》 梁一儒/著(author) 山东人民出版社/出版(publishor)
    《当代中国人的心理困扰》 李强/著(author) 科学出版社 (publishor)

    Be cautious to jump to a conclusion on a topic of which you know little. You frequently made groundless claims made me tired to do this simple lecture on Logical Reasoning.

    05 Mar 2005, 11:41

  341. New Yorker

    The articles you presented are extremely critical of India. Come on, if the society was that degrading, then it would not have ranked lower on ‘Probability of Political and Social Unrest’ criteria than China. (Source- The Economist, Feb 28- Mar 4, 2005)

    Certain problems the articles mention are very valid and alive still today. But then again, everybody knows about it. As I have been banging on about for so long, the problem with totalitarian states is that you don’t know what you are dealing with. I have cited these examples before, but it is worth going back to the CCP cover up of SARS, bird flu and AIDS just to note how the state would go to any extent to portray a glittering picture of the society when it has serious problems to be taken care of.

    When last I looked, the CCP was claiming that only 4.6% of China’s 1.3 billion people live below the poverty line. However, the World Bank and other respectable organisations disagree- putting the figure at “200 million”: link. Now, who do we trust- A multilateral organisation or a communist dictatorship? The 200 million figure is only slightly better than a 260 million figure for India. I am not dissing China’s economic performance, which believe you me has been staggering, but just pointing out some glitches.

    You are extrapolating a Hindu-Muslim conflict. In the same way we can do a Sino-Rest of World conflict. There is little compelling evidence. So kindly refrain.

    Stone Liu

    I am afraid I will have to agree with Ravi on this issue. The Chinese take criticism very badly, however constructive. This blog bears testimony to that fact. Moreover, there was an article very critical of China in the student magazine of University of Warwick and the Chinese students literally ‘lost it’. They sent death threats to the author- hardly a way one lodges their protest in a democratic CIVIL society.

    But it is natural behaviour for people who have not been exposed to effective criticism since 1949 (excepting of course the brief shift to sanity during the Hundred Flowers Movement).

    05 Mar 2005, 13:28

  342. Ravi kishore

    stone liu,

    I understand that most of the books will be written in chinese(naturally!) but i am suprised that there is no book in the "colonial" language.after all the chinese govt and the chinese people are desperate to learn the "colonial" language.After all according to many surveys the chinese language, is often referred to as being the single most difficult aspect of doing business in and with China. The language sounds impenetrable and the written language seemingly impossible.isnt it true that in chinese language the grammar is practically non-existent? There are no plurals, prepositions, no verb conjugations, no masculine, no feminine, no "the", no "a", no past or future tenses.Not suprisingly most chinese are desperate to learn and practise English.

    So i am really suprised that there are no books written by chinese(other than the diasporic chinese) on their soceity in english.may be that will change in the future with the chinese massively aping the west both culturally,religiously and linguistically.

    05 Mar 2005, 14:16

  343. Ravi

    It is utterly unfortunate about this Chinese fetish about 'colonial' language. I have pointed out to them previously that they are trying desperately to learn this language to do better at the outsourcing industry, but they still go on and on about it.

    Secondly, it is a blatant lie that there is no Chinese scholarship in English. I myself am a student of Chinese history and there is a whole load of material written by Chinese authors in English. Trying to hide behind the excuse of no work in English being present just shows the weakness of your position.

    Finally, ever wonder why we recommend the English readings to you? Because we have nothing to hide. If we gave you readings in Hindi, Bengali, Tamil, Telegu, Malayalam, Kannada, Punjabi or any other Indian language, would you be able to understand? Then you would have to rely on your words, which you do not trust anyway. This is why the English recommendations.

    Moral- 'There is none so blind as those who do not wish to see' and 'Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others'.

    05 Mar 2005, 14:20

  344. Ravi kishore

    Aruni,

    you are bang on the point.There is some thing in the chinese phyche which makes them react agressively even to genuine creiticism.I am not sure whether it is blind natinalism.But one thing is clear
    the chinese communist regime has been encouraging and utilising Chinese nationalism to retain its control and legitimacy but its actions are also circumscribed by the force of this nationalism. Any Marxist content of this nationalism was shed long ago and it has now become a combination of nation-state nationalism and traditional cultural-nationalism. The mix has become a potent force that is now independent of the Chinese communist regime. It would not be much of an exaggeration to say that the Chinese leaders are riding a dangerous beast that could get out of control if not reined in properly.

    05 Mar 2005, 15:28

  345. Ravi kishore

    I think that a wave of nationalism has been sweeping the Chinese intellectual class and the youth for nearly a decade prompted by the fear of disintegration. Its more extreme catch phrase has been “a China that can say NO”! (to others) Many of the chinese have now come to the view that “the weakening of state capacity in China” could lead to “the collapse of central authority” and even to “disintegration of the nation”.

    The Chinese Communist prefer to use the word “patriotism”, but for most intellectuals and the people generally this nationalism is “modernised.” Confucianism that would allow the Chinese people to acquire modern knowledge and modern institutions from the West and yet maintain the Confucian cultural traditions that makes up the collective experience of the Chinese people.In any case this new nationalism is the principal moving force in China today and explains — at least partly — the aggressive response of the chinese to any criticism.

    05 Mar 2005, 15:41

  346. New Yorker

    Ravi,

    All of sudden I realized there is no need to seriously discuss anything with you because you obviously lack too much on logic and knowledge base, and show total ignorance of the outside world. I do not want to convince you about anything because that is to me impossible now.

    Tell you one thing—-most of Chinese accused of being agressive and nationalist in this blog actually do not see India as an enemy, unlike many indians in those forums I have frequeted recently who are the worst racists I have ever seen, yelling out " we are the purest Aryan race on this planet ….." and crap like that.

    You claimed that You ( did you mean all Indians or just yourself ?) do not give it a damn to what outsiders think of India, well, that is fine with me. I as a Chinese do care a lot about how people from other countries think of us simply because this world is getting globalized and every country is becoming an intergral part of it.

    Keep on day dreaming and stick to your stupid ignorance, I do not have any problem with that either. If all indians are like you, that is even better because we will have one less competitor, bonus ! Somehow I enjoy watching you behave so ignorantly, to be frank with you. keep going buddy !

    As for the Chinese language, I recalled last year or the year before a British institue predicted that whithin 100 years, there will be only five languages left for common use, unfortunately Chinese was one of the five and none of Indian languages made it there. the English learning heat wave observed in China is mainy driven by those foreign companies and the latest decree from the Ministry of Education was aimed to cool it down. But anyways, I see this as a strategic advantage of China facing the Western Powers because we will have easy access to info on what is going on there and they will have hard time in doing the same thing. One more thing, there are a lot of references on the web on the comparative studies of the Chinese and the occidental languages but of course you will one more time close your stupid ignorant eyes on that I reckon.

    Good buddy, keep on going like that, I am clapping my hands !

    05 Mar 2005, 17:24

  347. Ravi kishore

    new yorker,

    you accuse me of being "ignorant" about chinese but are no less ignorant about india.Infact ur indian knowledge is no more than some google searched anti-india articles.You keep on telling all kinds of rubbish about india,but when i say something about china u call me "ignorant".And look at ur knowledge about india.You say indians are racist who say "they are the purest aryan race in the world" and other crap.This itself shows ur knowledge of india.Any body who knows india will tell you that even die hard indian/Hindu nationalists will never say that "we are pure aryan race".because for us indians "aryan" is not an racial term.it is derived from the sanskrit word "arya"which is rather central in Hindu tradition.the term does not indicate a race, but a quality of character.When Hindu saints gave short formulation of their teachings, they called it the "Arya Satyani", the Noble Truths.
    to say we are racists is totally ignorance.Its the chinese (including some in this forum) who used racial words to describe indians.

    Indians dont consider chinese as enemies.But its the other way around.The chinese dont respect indian culture,indian acheivements.But they expect indians to respect their culture and their acheivements.Just look at this blog itself.All that Aruni said was "right now china is ahead.but india also is catching up".And yo! we had chinese posting all kinds anti-indian articles desperate to prove that india is nowhere in the picture.Even they are questioning the legitimate acheivements we acheived.If this is not anti-indianism,then what is it?

    when chinese desperately try to learn english then its okey.But when indians learn them then it will become "colonial language".
    when chinese say(including some in this blog) there should be communist revolution in india,then thats okey.But when i say that their should be democracy in india,then that's offensive.

    And you expect me not to talk about this Hypocracy!

    05 Mar 2005, 18:12

  348. Hu ZhenYu

    We Chinese can write India off. Because we have given them Pakistan, to keep them busy.
    We only need to give our Pakistan fellow little help, to let India enjoy Pakistan asured total distruction.

    In China's road to super power, India is a small case that is done. No need to talk about it any more.

    05 Mar 2005, 18:24

  349. Ravi kishore

    Hu zhen yu

    keep dreaming!

    But pray that the nukes u gave to the pakis does not end in the hands of the terrorists.
    who knows, some crazy paki mullah will give some of the dirty bombs to the ughirs and kick ur chinese ass as well.
    if there is a rogue nation in this world,then that is china.It keeps on giving dangerous tech to its rougue lackeys.

    05 Mar 2005, 20:06

  350. stone Liu

    To some sense, I have to agree with Ravi that we (many Chinese fellows on this blog) have been saying too harsh words on India and her people. Ravi was offensive, because he was offended. Chinese fellows had been offensive, because they felt also offended. debating in this atmosphere doesn't make friends, doesn't improve understanding. It only hurts. Nobody win.
    Both Indian and Chinese are eager to gain respect, because we both experienced humiliations. on the way to a great reconstruction of the once rich and powerful Oriental world, we both have made great progresses, both suffer countless drawbacks up to now.
    We Chinese don't regard India as an enemy. actually the Chinese govt are gradually loosing its tie with Pakistan. We would eventually keep equal distances with India and Pakistan, as long as India doesn't act as a pawn of US to blockade China on the southwest.

    05 Mar 2005, 23:24

  351. Hu ZhenYu

    US has never been with India, US is with Pakistan. India does not have any US made weapon, all its weapons are from Russia.
    It is Pakistan flys F-16. Now US is helping to upgade it to block 60 standard, it can beat whole IAF hand down.

    We Chinese basically do not care about India, it is India always attack China recently. Some time you have to make it clear who is the boss.

    06 Mar 2005, 01:55

  352. A Chinese

    To Ravi (or whatever ur name is):

    I can sense your frustrations between your lines when you read that article I posted, because its author is an Indian! (that was why I choose to post it) and you have no choice but admitting it. No matter how 'pride' you seem to show when you say "Indians are gracious enough to admit their mistakes if any…blah blah", what you said was simply not real. I guess that 'ego' shit about Chinese will completely disappear for a while within lines of your future posts here. Please always be careful every time when you want to open your stinky mouth and try to say something which you think should be evil or negative about Chinese, think twice, because you may be ended up with the same embarrassment like this time, which is, simply eating your own shit that you spread.

    Regarding your question about the name I used, it is simply my freedom to choose whatever name I want to use here, and I don't feel anything wrong about it.

    Regards,
    A Chinese

    06 Mar 2005, 04:04

  353. Ravi kishore

    Hu zhen yu,

    First look at ur own country before u dream of converting india to islam.Ur own country is being converted into a big christian camp.Christianity is the fastest growing religion in china.In the future ur culture will get fucked up.China's culture will meet the same fate as south korea's.u will be completely christianised.Many chinese because of inferiority of their culture adopt christian names.They try hard not to be like chinese.So first worry at ur culture,then u can think about india.

    And first brush up ur knowledge.Indian Air Force(IAF) is superiour to the chinese air force.If only nehru had given permission to IAF in 1962,we would have blasted the chinks to the pieces.In 62 the chinese air force is nothing but junk.But luck was on ur side.And nehru decided against using the IAF.
    Remember the somdorong chu conflict of 1987,when the chinese began to do mischief and when the the indians mobilised,retreated back.

    And it seems that ur lackeys, the pakis also dont like ur junk equipment.http://www.dawn.com/2005/03/05/top6.htm

    06 Mar 2005, 12:08

  354. Ravi kishore

    stone liu,

    I thought all chinese are gone cases.It seems that some chinese have brains(just kidding).But seriously speaking,India will do whatever which is in its interest.We are not anti-chinese.We will support the americans if it serves our interest.We will also support the chinese if its in our interest.After all the chinese,after all the anti-american rhetoric did supported the americans in 70s and 80s(after richard nixon's visit) against soviet union.Now again they are with the russians against americans.So just like china is looking at its interests,india also has to look after its interests.
    But its the chinese who makes things difficult.In 1998 after india's nuclear tests,the chinese reacted very harshly.The indians were so pissed off,that some advised the govt to open Indian embbasy in Taipai.But better sense prevailed on both sides and relations came back to normal.But one thing which is mysterious is why did the chinese gave nukes to the pakis.You dont give nukes even to ur closest ally.And pakistan is a rougue state.Did the chinese really beleived that the nukes will be safe with the pakistanis.Just look at A.q.khan network.How did he spread the nuke tech to countries like saudi arabia,libya,syria…......list goes on.The chinese did a very big mistake.

    06 Mar 2005, 12:35

  355. Ravi kishore

    A chinese(what ever ur name may be)

    My name is Ravi Kishore.I am not ashamed of my name like you.I can sense the frustrations of some of the chinese in this blog.just go through the post of hu zhen yu.they are always hilarious.And one suggestion,theer is no point in posting articles written by indians in this blog because we would have all ready red that one.It would be better if you post articles(other than propoganda ones) by chinese about their soceity and politics.That would be informative.

    06 Mar 2005, 12:48

  356. Iron Farmer

    #342: is often referred to as being the single most difficult aspect of doing business in and with China. The language sounds impenetrable and the written language seemingly impossible.isnt it true that in chinese language the grammar is practically non-existent? There are no plurals, prepositions, no verb conjugations, no masculine, no feminine, no "the", no "a", no past or future tenses.Not suprisingly most chinese are desperate to learn and practise English.

    Ravi kishore is a proven liar.
    I bet you can not support you BS again. Chinese is a language more accurate than English. English can translate into Chinese precisely in full. Since there is a clever way to handle tenses in Chinese, one needs remember a few Chinese characters and simple rules. Why do you want to put you deep trouble of grammar traps with tenses? Chinese does have grammar, it is simple so grammar mistakes are none issue in Chinese. Like “You kick your butt” can be translate into Chinese exactly the same order in Chinese characters. Want a book? Mandarin Chinese: A Functional Reference Grammar link
    Want a class? ADVANCED CHINESE GRAMMAR : link You are far beyond serious discussion on the board, you are pretty much typical scum look for a fight.

    For anybody who interested in comparing Chinese to English, it contribute what I know. There are many advantages for Chinese over English:

    ( found it from other site: =) This is a very strong argument. I've found some statistics for alphabetical writing systems (English and Russian) and ideographic writing system (Chinese). The average length of the word in English is 4.5 characters, in Russian – 5.28 characters. In Chinese according to different estimates it varies from 1.8 to 2.2 characters. While the average length of the sentence in Russian is 10.38 words, in English it's 7.07 words and in Chinese it's 6.87 words. According to this data, Chinese writing is 2-2.5 times more efficient than English and 2.5–3 times more efficient than Russian

    Some advance Chinese typing program has different method with standard keyboard enable people to type Chinese at speed well over 200 Chinese characters per minute. 200 Chinese words are equal to 120 English words per minute. As you know each Chinese character only have one sound, it is very easy for sound recognition. Speech Recognition software to input Chinese was out for endusers since 1996. That is a big plus for future. One more is the Vocabulary argument. During Shakespeare age, English had Vocabulary in the neighborhood of 20,000s. Today, it is in million level today. Collage graduates need to learn 50,000 English at minimum in their major. Compare with average Chinese use only 2,000 Chinese characters for most of daily life, TV, news papers. Or 5,000 characters of professionals. Chinese characters does increased from Shakespeare age to now, but not in large scale. It was a Germany language professor first found the problem in English. In information age, vocabulary increased exponentially in many languages, only Chinese keep up those in wise way.

    (page #1)

    06 Mar 2005, 15:19

  357. Iron Farmer

    An advanced language is harder for beginner. The effort you spend maybe more than worthy for Chinese people. Other than education, nutrition and else factors, Language is a key for Chinese success, I believe as this article, Chinese use their brains more.

    Chinese 'takes more brainpower'
    link
    Researchers in Britain have found that people who speak Mandarin Chinese use both sides of their brain to understand the language. .. It seems that the structure of the language you learn as a child affects how the structure of your brain develops to decode speech.

    The wealth of nations is mapped by their IQ
    link

    Average IQ of Countries
    link
    Britain is set at 100, USA is lower at 98, and world average IQ becomes 90. Click 3 blue nations for analysis of East Asian, Jewish, or Hispanic IQ's:
    Hong Kong(China) 107 Korea, South 106 Japan 105 Taiwan(China) 104 Singapore 104 Austria 102 Germany 102 Italy 102 Netherlands 102 Sweden 101 Switzerland 101 Belgium 100 China 100 New Zealand 100 U. Kingdom 100 Hungary 99 Poland 99 Australia 98 Denmark 98 France 98 Norway 98 United States 98 Canada 97 Czech Republic 97 Finland 97 Spain 97 Argentina 96 Russia 96 Slovakia 96 Uruguay 96 Portugal 95 Slovenia 95 Israel 94 Romania 94 Bulgaria 93 Ireland 93 Greece 92 Malaysia 92 Thailand 91 Croatia 90 Peru 90 Turkey 90 Colombia 89 Indonesia 89 Suriname 89 Brazil 87 Iraq 87 Mexico 87 Samoa (Western) 87 Tonga 87 Lebanon 86 Philippines 86 Cuba 85 Morocco 85 Fiji 84 Iran 84 Marshall Islands 84 Puerto Rico 84 Egypt 83 India 81 Ecuador 80 Guatemala 79 Barbados 78 Nepal 78 Qatar 78 Zambia 77 Congo (Brazz) 73 Uganda 73 Jamaica 72 Kenya 72 South Africa 72 Sudan 72 Tanzania 72 Ghana 71 Nigeria 67 Guinea 66 Zimbabwe 66 Congo (Zaire) 65 Sierra Leone 64 Ethiopia 63 Equatorial Guinea 59

    06 Mar 2005, 15:35

  358. Ravi kishore

    Hu zhen yu,

    Paki nukes are self made!who told you?may be ur chinky scientists who gave the nuke tech to the pakis told you i guss.If you are so fond of muslims then go and lick their ass.that would be ideal.After all both muslims and chinks are the scums of this earth.

    06 Mar 2005, 15:36

  359. New Yorker

    I think it is not fair to generalise about 1.3 and 1.1 billion people of China and India respectively. You can mention your view of the Indian people ‘that you encountered’, just like I made it clear that my judgement of Chinese psyche is based on my experience with them (I went to boarding school in England with them for 2 years). Pakistanis are much more concerned about the ‘Aryan fetish’ than Indians. From the comments of Hu Zhen Yu above (which I deleted), he seems to be agreeing with them. So who is the racist around here?

    China is more an opportunity than a threat for India. I have always maintained the opportunity cost the countries have incurred in the past by letting politics overrule trade. But then again, gestures from China before 2001 were not that encouraging in the first place. Things are changing though- and the upcoming visit of Wen Jiabao should further strengthen ties.

    Regarding the research on languages by the British institute (to whom there is no reference from you- a typical Chinese disregard for intellectual property), predictions are made to be incorrect. If you believe everything you read without having a basic knowledge of the subject matter, what is the difference between you and a farmer from Hubei?

    Stone Liu

    You have correctly noted that China is slowly distancing itself from Pakistan as it sees the benefit of a closer Sino-Indian relationship. But there is a lot more to be done. For starters, the support China renders to separatist groups in the North East of India, like ULFA does not help. Secondly, the military junta in Myanmar and the imprisoned Aung Sung Tsuki reminds us of how China killed democracy there. Thirdly, Bangladesh is another banana republic living on Chinese dole. Fourthly, China still props up Pakistan to an extent- after all, free/cheap military technology is still proliferated.

    But the Chinese insistence that the border issue will be resolved peacefully is encouraging.

    Hu Zhen Yu

    I have ignored your naïve comments. I’ll dwell on more particularly fallacious one. If you think US is giving Pakistan F-16 Block 60, then you are kidding yourself. Also, even if PAF does get the F-16, you forget a certain aircraft called the Su-30MKI in the IAF. I believe the Chinese Su-30MKK has an inferior radar and cockpit to the MKI version.

    Iron Farmer

    I don’t know the comparisons between Mandarin and English, but Sanskrit has been proven through many researches to be the world’s most scientifically written and spoken language. It is the mother of all Indian, and indeed, all Indo-European languages.

    06 Mar 2005, 15:41

  360. Hu ZhenYu

    We do not like Muslim, they are just a mad dog we use.

    Pakistan is China's gift to India. So enjoy.

    What is India's problem with Bangaladesh ???? This is something I do not know.

    06 Mar 2005, 18:07

  361. Hu ZhenYu

    This army can beat India easily link

    What happens if India has a war with US in 1950?
    Answer: Indians today speak American English :)

    06 Mar 2005, 18:20

  362. Ravi kishore

    Iron farmer,

    i think u dint get what i said.In spite of all the bull shit u posted above,the fact remains that the chinese language is still the biggest huddle in doing bussiness in china.If anybody wants to do bussiness in china,then he would come,does not his bussiness and leave.Thats it.he is neither interested nor he has time to go through all the bull shit of chinese language.Its as simple as that.

    In ur link"china takes more brain power",the comparision is only between english and mandarin.I am sure if the comparision is between english and any other indian language,the result would have been same.Dont forget that the indians know minimum three different languages.so according to the article the indians also use two sides of the brain,and hence has more brain power.

    06 Mar 2005, 18:29

  363. Ravi kishore

    Hu zhen yu,

    I have to admit i enjoy replying to ur posts.you are such a bafoon character :)

    Chinese are scumbags.they dont care about the world.since they themselves are big rougues,its not suprising that their allies are also rougue nations.pakistan,north korea etc.any where there is a trouble,chinese hand is always there.

    Taiwan did a good thing by seperating from china.The japanese did tried to civilize the chinks during the world war2,but it sad that they left the job unfinished.Thats the reason the chinks are like this.They are still thinking like barbarians.

    06 Mar 2005, 18:47

  364. Hu ZhenYu

    Ravi, you theory is not correct.
    In Asia the most adanved country is Japan, and they speak poorest English.

    Language is not a problem in doing businss with China. Most people do communicate very well in English. And more and more Foreigner are start learning Chinese. Chinese culture is in fashion now. You see many Chinese tatoo? Never any Hindi tatoo???

    India is a conqured race. Only India can think speak other people's language is an advantage. It does make Indian a better servant.

    06 Mar 2005, 18:48

  365. Hu ZhenYu

    India's Nasa boy link

    What can I say? 1 billion idots.

    06 Mar 2005, 18:56

  366. Iron Farmer

    ==#342: After all according to many surveys the chinese language, is often referred to as being the single most difficult aspect of doing business in and with China. The language sounds impenetrable and the written language seemingly impossible
    ==#362: the fact remains that the chinese language is still the biggest huddle in doing bussiness in china.If anybody wants to do bussiness in china,then he would come,does not his bussiness and leave.Thats it.he is neither interested nor he has time to go through all the bull shit of chinese language.Its as simple as that.

    Ravi, you are either plain stupid or intend to mislead the message board. After this post, I will put you in ignore. You mentioned business again, Can your big mouth show one of the surveys you claim many on #342? Number in billions of people use Chinese language what feel it is easy(write faster, type faster and more efficient than English), why you cant? You are better to blame your stupidities than a language.

    About doing business, you know nothing about economic and business. China receives 10 times more FDI than India, China trades 10 times more with the world than India, China grows 50% faster than India, China invested 10 times more oversea than India. All of those can spell China is much easy to deal with in business area than India. I don’t see there any sign of difficulties. All of your posts without support is BS!

    06 Mar 2005, 20:12

  367. Ravi kishore

    Hu zhen yu,

    Since chinese language looks like a cave language,some of the fools may have it as a tatoo.yeah japs are hardworking.we indians prefer japs to the chinkees.

    Indians are a race! you dumbass,we indians dont beleive in racial bull shit.
    its only you chinese,throughly aping the whites talk of racial things.
    china is the most intellectually conquered country.buddhism came from india,marxism came from russia,capitalism came from the west.And now massively aping the west they are converting to christianity.The chinese dont have brains.They always borrow something or the other from other cultures.If the japanese had stayed a little longer,then i would be speaking with a chinese shinto :)

    And by the by talking about India-nasa thing,36%of nasa scientists are indian origin.

    06 Mar 2005, 20:18

  368. Ravi kishore

    Iron farmer,

    I am fed up repeating my self.But i will add one thing.Regarding the FDI thing,which the Chinese always trump up,there is a difference how the Chinese and Indians count FDI.Given India's narrow definition of FDI, the inflow is less compared to China's.This is because India considers only equity capital as FDI. The International Monetary Fund (IMF) counts portfolio investments in excess of 10% as FDI as well.Defined in Chinese terms – which complies with IMF standards – Indian FDI would thus have to include the $10 billion foreign institutional investment this fiscal year, as well as remittances that are likely to cross $20 billion. Adding up a couple more miscellaneous items not considered currently, Indian FDI in Chinese terms would easily cross $50 billion.
    Almost 50% of China's foreign investment could be domestic cash, which, by way of a novel investment method called "round-tripping", is channeled from mainland China to Hong Kong or Macau to be ploughed back in as foreign investment in order to avail the tax incentives.China even includes imported equipment in its FDI figures, but India uses this in its trade data.

    06 Mar 2005, 21:00

  369. Hu ZhenYu

    Indian is clearly an inferior race.

    India has no Olympic gold medal, with 1 billion population, what a shame ? 1 billiion soft nigger :)
    India has no UNSC seat, even you cry to join? But be patient, you might have to wait until year 3000. :)

    06 Mar 2005, 21:02

  370. Ravi kishore

    comon,read my reply, u nutcase.Indians are not a race.There is indian civilization,indian culture.But there is nothing called "indian race".ru listening Dumbo!
    I am really suprised that u are so obssesed with this race thing.

    we dont have UNSC seat beacuse nehru,obssesed with principals and morality gave the seat to china.Otherwise india would have been sitting in china's palce now.

    06 Mar 2005, 21:41

  371. Hu ZhenYu

    In order to get a seat in UNSC, India need some prove. For example go to war with an existing UNSC member. Like China did in Korea war.
    Indians are funny, you think UNSC is a place you can just apply to get in??? Come on, UNSC is a super power club, not a weekend hobby club.

    You see we Chinese is pratical people, only talk you can not impress us? Show us some real thing.
    For example
    1) 2008 Olmpic, how about 1 gold ? only one for 1 billion people, not too much to ask???
    2) Take Kasmir as a whole, if you can ?

    Indians are like to spend time with its superpower mastbating,
    when come to real, nothing happens …....

    06 Mar 2005, 22:09

  372. New Yorker

    Iron Farmer

    Thank you for the link to the IQ map of the world. I am convinced that this has for the first time scientifically proved that India as a nation is inferior to most others.

    Hu ZhenYu

    Thank you for the link to that NASA boy story. I was tryingt to find the same thing a couple of days ago but did not succeed. I can not agree more with you that they are just 1 billiion idots. I can not think of anything else that is more humiliating to a nation, hahaha

    India's lower IQ (20 points lower than China's) and inferiority complex clearly explain why Indians behave the way they behave in this blog.

    06 Mar 2005, 22:17

  373. Hu ZhenYu

    Just for laugh.

    Why superman is from India?
    Answer: India is the only country in the world, where man can run faster than a train.

    Why Arnold Schiwazniger is from India?
    Answer: Only Indians can speak English with so bad accent.

    What is even worse than communist censorship of Internet?
    Answer: It is the world's biggest democracy’s 2-kilo bits network speed.

    06 Mar 2005, 23:16

  374. stone Liu

    "we dont have UNSC seat beacuse nehru,obssesed with principals and morality gave the seat to china.Otherwise india would have been sitting in china's palce now."—- Ravi kishore

    Ravi kishore, you need some reading to know the history better. the 5 UNSC memberships originates from the vitory of WW-2. the five major winner of the war, namely US, USSR, China, Britain and France set up the UNSC. USSR, France and Britain contributed most to the victory over Germany, while China, US and USSR contributed most to the victory over Japan. UNSC memberships for these 5 countries are reasonable. until 1945, India were still a colony of Britain, didn't get independent yet, what's Indian's contribution to the victory of WW-II? There must be some, but not comparable with anyone of the above 5.

    UNSC is a super power club. a membership requires at least:
    1. mature, tested-effctive nuclear weapen, include hydrogen bomb and neutron bomb.
    2. reliable long range rocket.
    3, multi-head nuclear missile technique to guarantee defence penetration.
    4. reliable nuclear sub-marines that guarantee survival in the first nuclear attack from enemies and commit nuclear revenges.

    India has some distance to meet the requirement.

    06 Mar 2005, 23:19

  375. A Chinese

    To All Chinese here:

    Do you guys notice that this Ravi thing starts to use the word: 'Chinks', 'Chinky' or 'Chinkee' etc in its recently anti-China posts? It appears this loser eventually shows its true ugly racist face here.

    To Aruni:

    Are posts that contained racial word: 'Chinks', 'Chinky' or 'Chinkee' supposed to be deleted? Then why you didn't delete it? double standards here?

    Regards,
    A Chinese

    07 Mar 2005, 03:30

  376. Ravi kishore

    A chinese,

    I did not start this racial bull shit.Its hu zhen yu and new yorker(indians are inferiour race and all those bull shit) who started this one.i am only replying to their posts.if we ur so interested in preaching,then first go and preach top ur fellow chinkees and make sure they dont behave likje racists again.then il stop.

    Regards.

    07 Mar 2005, 08:26

  377. Ravi kishore

    stone lie,

    Its not as simple as that.What ur saying is like the means justifying the ends.Chinas entry into unsc is just politics,thats it.after world war2,its natinalist china which was in security council.when the communists took beijing and the nationalists went to taiwan,communisst representatives were not allowed to take the seat.so for the next couple of years it is taiwan and not china which sat on the security council seat.since a small taiwan sitting on security council seat was a embassement to the west,they asked nehru whether india would take the seat and represent asia instead of communist china.but nehru(who saw india and china as civilizational cousins and wanted close ties with china) refused that offer and instead lobbied hard for getting that seat for china.the west convinced that nehru is not going to take advantage of anti-china card,did not push further.

    in the 60s and 70s,when differences arose between sovits union and china, nixon wanted to play the "enemies enemy is my friend" card and bedan to send feelers to china.when kissenger began his behind the scenes negociations,mao and deng put a condition that if us wants china to join hands with them,then the us should support one-china policy,taiwan should be out of un,and china should be in as a permanent member.The fact that china was by then a nuclear power was an added advantage,but it was not the primary reason why china was taken into unsc.It was purely politics.
    The americans supported it because it suited them strategically(to gand up against soviet union) and economically(to enter the chinese market after it was thrown open by deng).

    07 Mar 2005, 08:51

  378. Ravi kishore

    hu zhen yu,

    before asking india to take kashmir fully(which we will do eventually anyway),first u chinks should worry how to take taiwan abck.at least india has 2/3 rd of kashmir under its control(including the capital city and other stategic places),but taiwan is a de facto independent state.china does have the capability to take even an inch of taiwan .taiwan has its own govt,own defence forces,its own embassies,its own flag,and china does not even have a capability to do anything other than rant about taiwans independence.

    07 Mar 2005, 09:17

  379. Ravi kishore

    new yorker,

    ur inferiority complex is showing.first u say u want to "ignore" my posts.then u come back and start posting again.if this is not inferiority comlex,then what is it?
    And all those "sceintific results" you are talking are bull shit.They are inconclusive and does not prove anything.

    The chinese behaviour is typical. if a dispute happens between an outsider and a Chink, chinese first reaction is not to see it as a person-to-person incident but as a dispute between two nationalities.if the troublemaker is from the US, the chinks would say he looked down on Chinese. If it was a Japanese, it would be even more terrible.if its is an indian,then its reverse.they say that indians are inferiour and all that bull shit.It is nationalistic passion that pushes people to make the premature judgment that the outsider looked down on Chinese people, even before knowing any more information.The over-reaction by chinkees also shows the inferiority complex of the chinky people.In fact, Chinese culture hasn't the habit of treating people fairly and it is easy for Chinese people to classify people into different groups.

    07 Mar 2005, 09:36

  380. Ravi kishore

    Hu zhen yu,

    I know chinkees are racist bugs.Thanks for confirming it.Thats the reason everybody hates them.
    They are such a nutcases that they think that having some sports medals makes them some great power.Their brains are also like their faces only—-chinkee face and chinkee brain.

    07 Mar 2005, 13:34

  381. Hu ZhenYu

    Sorry buddy, no medal, no UNSC seat …
    You can apply of course, but the minimum requirements for your application to be evaluated is 5 gold medal.

    1 billion people, 5 medal it is a fair requirement. We are not difficult with you, you guys just really sucks …

    07 Mar 2005, 13:45

  382. Ravi kishore

    Hu zhen yu

    you are saying as if you are standing at the ticket counter and allowing anybody with "5 gold medal" inside unsc :)

    Typical chinkee :)

    07 Mar 2005, 14:30

  383. J wu

    Hu zhen yu:
    I really doubt that you are a chinese, or a chinese from mainland.
    Guys, before you get angry, remember there are many psychos in the world who try hard to make noise between China and India. Because their bad dream is that China and India become friend. They want to divide and rule these two great countries.

    07 Mar 2005, 18:25

  384. Iron Farmer

    to all,
    please ignore the kisshole from here and on. That does not do any good continue on shooting damm thing.

    for Aruni,
    you have an option to get rid the racial messages to keep your blog clean.
    If it still stay this way, I would say goodbye to all.
    Good luck on your research.

    Just curiously,
    after dropped a kisshole to the board, Aruni posted less and less, are you too busy on reading or doing some business else?

    07 Mar 2005, 18:25

  385. J Wu

    In this blog, Indians prove that they are not talktive, but Chinese(If they are real Chinese).

    07 Mar 2005, 18:37

  386. Hu ZhenYu

    我是流氓, 我怕谁?

    You can call me Chink, you can call me yellow, I am not offended. I do not care, since I am very comfortable with myself.

    Why Indians get offended if others call them black? There is nothing wrong being black, what is wrong is India.

    07 Mar 2005, 20:00

  387. Iron Farmer

    ==#365 by ZhenYu
    ==India's Nasa boy link

    It is slow to day, so I have time to read some posts I usually choose to skip, but I found it is very funny on this one. So read some related pages, you see, dont laugh! A kid fools one, ok, fools 100, ok. But a country? that shows a tip of iceberg problem. What did you guys learn from school or colleges? —— use a logical, critical eye to doubt a statement by others and analysis with what you had learned. I had met many Indians, real persons and indirectory on web, my impression of them is lack of logic, dont think.

    ——————————
    A tiger trapped by its pride
    Published: March 4 2005 20:36

    As hoaxes go, it was stellar. Saurabh Singh, a 17-year-old boy from India's impoverished state of Uttar Pradesh, managed last week to convince India's media and its president, Abdul Kalam, that he beat 200,000 other aspiring rocket scientists to come first in NASA's annual exam.

    The only problem was that "The International Scientist Discovery" exam, as America's space agency politely averred, does not exist. Fortunately for Manmohan Singh, India's prime minister, this was discovered hours before he was to meet the budding superstar. Members of Uttar Pradesh's upper chamber were not so lucky. They had already pledged a month's salary apiece to Saurabh. Mr Kalam, himself a rocket scientist, was only told after having granted the teenager an audience.
    link
    ———————————-

    08 Mar 2005, 02:18

  388. Ravi kishore

    Hu zhen yu,

    Indians are not facinated by colour bull shit,unlike u chinks.Why are the chinkees uncomfortable with themselves.chinkee is not a bad word.i guss.or is it?

    08 Mar 2005, 06:38

  389. Ravi kishore

    Iron farmer,

    Taking one obscure incident and extrapolating it to explain the entire phyche of the nation,tells more about urself and ur intentions than about the people ur trying to explain.As far as the "indian examples" u talked about,it depends how u see them.As aruni said "there is none so blind who do not wish to see" But if u want chinese examples,u need not go anywhere.all u have to do is to come and see the chinkee posts in this blog and u will know the typical chinkee phyche.

    08 Mar 2005, 07:15

  390. Iron Farmer

    I don’t post for the sake of it. Look at the quality of the debate over the past couple of days. It has taken a perpendicular dive towards the bottom. When I see something worth replying to, I’ll do it. In any case, I don’t believe in repeating the same argument. Ravi is making some valid points, and there is no logic for me to invade and rubber stamp what he’s saying.

    Regarding the racist comments, there is no option for part deleting messages/editing messages on this board. Hu Zhen Yu posted just nonsense and nothing else, so his posts went. As far as Ravi and other posters are concerned, there is some substance to their post and so it is not worth deleting all of it. I request users to look beyond the mud slinging at the real issues.

    Hu Zhen Yu

    If you go and visit Punjab or Kashmir, you will be hard pressed to find someone with a ‘black skin’. It is true that some of the south Indians do indeed have black skin, but it is more apt to label that has ‘dark brown’ and the north Indians as a lighter shade of brown. In most cases, the sub-continental (along with the Arabic) race is described as ‘brown’.

    If someone called you pink or orange, would that be accurate? No. So quit repeating the same mistake over and over again.

    08 Mar 2005, 08:14

  391. Hu ZhenYu

    See how Indian's own discussing about NASA boy

    link

    08 Mar 2005, 08:46

  392. Ravi kishore

    Hu zhen yu,

    Its seems u and some other chinese here are getting some kind of "nirvana" by talking about thsi incident.Why dont you "anal-eyes" the "hole" incident and earn a phd degree.that would be helpful in ur carrer.

    08 Mar 2005, 09:50

  393. Ravi kishore

    hu zhenyu,

    it seems that u and some other chinkees here are having some kind of "nirvana" by talking about this incident again and again.It seems that after desperately trying and google serching u got this one incident and now by using this incident u are again desperately trying to prove how "stupid" the indians are.Typical chinkee :)

    08 Mar 2005, 09:59

  394. Ravi kishore

    Aruni,

    Its really sad that we are not having any serious discussion here.But that is completely due to the chinese here,who are desperate to show that somehow india is "inferiour" to them.When everything fails,they resort to direct racial slants.But one thing what i have observed is as far as civility is concerned,indians are far ahead of chinese.In indian forums,even at the height of debating sensitive issues like Hindu nationalism/secularism, Aryan debate,etc where tempers usually run high,u wont see an abusive kind of debate.At the most it will be rough,but never abusive.But its seems the chinese debating culture(if there is one!) is completely opposite.Here people start the debate by abusing the opponent and through the debate they despereately try to put the other side down.

    08 Mar 2005, 10:17

  395. Hu ZhenYu

    Funny India logic link

    If India can consider its Olympic performance not bad.
    It can certainly consider Mumbai's slum is a symble of modernization. :-)

    How can China possibly compete with this kind of optimistic ?? Now they even got the NASA boy.

    08 Mar 2005, 15:22

  396. Ravi kishore

    One more instance of the chinkees blindly aping the west.
    link

    More than 1.6 million Chinese couples divorce in 2004

    Mon Feb 28,11:01 AM ET

    BEIJING (AFP) – More than 1.6 million couples got divorced in China last year, a steep rise from 2003 despite the stigma attached to parting ways in what is still a traditionally conservative country.

    Statistics from the Ministry of Civil Affairs showed the number of divorces jumped by 282,000 to more than 1.6 million, the Xinhua news agency reported Monday.

    Wu Changzhen, an expert on marriage from the People's University in Beijing, blamed a simpler process of registering a divorce, introduced in 2003, as contributing to the high rate.

    "The civil affairs departments should raise the awareness of people to take marriage seriously through relevant campaigns or programs," he said.

    The increase comes despite divorced women in China being looked down upon. Many stay in unhappy marriages, fearing disgrace and reproach from their families if they split up.

    However, in major cities such as Beijing and Shanghai attitudes are changing, recent studies show.

    Slowly, urban women in big cities are learning they can find happiness and love after a divorce, often through the help of increasingly liberal women's magazines which encourage them to take charge of their lives.

    08 Mar 2005, 16:03

  397. New Yorker

    Let me try to give you some analyses of the mentality sitting under the NASA boy phenomenon.

    This is because of the Indians' strong inferior complex, which prompted them to grasp anything they thought worth being proud of and boasted to the outside world in the hope of convincing people that they are not inferior. They did this in such a rush, before even thinking of "think twice", as to prove to the outside world, one more time, that it is true they are thinking of themselves as inferior.

    This strong inferior complex has been rooted in the Indian culture for many years, and they had always been able to find some relief in comparing India with some other "more backward" countries like China given the comparable populations of the two countries, until recently when they realized that China was actually much ahead of India in terms of almost anything other than reproduction rate and infant mortality rate. This served as a big blow that hit him so hard that the country started to adopt some Chinese policies used to be dubbed "the socialist crap" and the politicians yelled desperately that they wanted to transform Mumbai into Shanghai.

    I was trying to convince Aruni in this blog that Shanghai is way ahead of Mumbai and until they modify their political system to such an extent as to allow for removal of the infamous caste system India has no chance to catch up with China, but what I got back from him was repetitive justification of the India's "right doing" and reinteration of the illusion that India is catching up".

    As I said, this caste system is the worst of all modern time social systems and is the root cause of India's backwardness so far, but he constantly divert attention to something else and refuse to see it. India's social system of today is litterally a master-and-slave type, in which 85% of the population is considered inferior to the top 15% percent, and the mojority are such pious believers that they won't even try to improve their lives because this will be considered as against the wills of the Gods. How can any of us able to think critically believe that such a country can catch up with China or any other fast developing countries ???

    Before the removal of this ineuqal social system, which is less likely given the currently political system of India, any talking of catching up with any other countries is just waste of time.

    08 Mar 2005, 16:53

  398. Ravi kishore

    This is how chinese people treat people from the rural areas

    link

    08 Mar 2005, 17:16

  399. Ravi kishore

    chinas extra judicial killings

    link

    I dont know that chinese police have arrest "quotas".
    link
    Wonder how many of them are innocents nabbed to fulfill quotas

    08 Mar 2005, 17:27

  400. New Yorker

    Which Chinese policies do we seek to emulate? If you’re talking about transforming Mumbai into Shanghai, then it is adopting more market oriented policies and not socialist ones. In fact, quite the contrary. If India were to copy the so called Chinese socialist policies, then that would be Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution. Post Deng Xiaoping China has nothing (or very little) socialist about it when it comes to economics.

    What do you know about India’s caste system? Nil it seems. When you argued that caste system still forms the backbone of the Indian society, I showed you that people from a so called lower caste background have reached the very top of Indian society (Prime Minister and President included). When you talked about Hindus hounding minorities, I pointed out that India'’ current Prime Minister and President are Sikh and Muslim respectively. When you talked about equality of opportunity, I mentioned the SC/ST Act of Parliament, which prevents upper caste Hindus getting the job in favour of lower caste Hindus/Muslims, etc.

    Each of your allegations have been resoundingly refuted and you still continue your rant. Any repetitive posts from now on will simply be deleted.

    The emperor has no clothes, even though he might think he does.

    China’s urban areas are utterly impressive no doubt. But after all being said and done, its GDP per capita is around the $1,000 figure compared to a approximate $600 figure for India. This is the difference between two countries. The World Bank says there are 200 million people below $1/day in China, 260 million such people in India.

    India has some caste problem in rural areas, China has minority problems in Tibet and Xingjiang. India has problem with another nuclear power Pakistan, China has problem with non-nuclear Taiwan and Japan, and nuclear America. Both India and China face rural development challenges.

    India cannot impose restrictions on its citizens to plan the very minute detail of its urban areas, like China does. India is a free country unlike China.

    This is the real difference and similarity- get past the shiny skyscrapers and see the real India and China.

    08 Mar 2005, 17:27

  401. Ravi kishore

    china, biggest consumer of cigarettes!
    Ah! now i know why chinkee facial expressions are like that :)

    link

    08 Mar 2005, 17:41

  402. Ravi kishore

    China's mental-health crises
    link

    It seems that dogs dont like chinkees.
    Il guss what the reason is.is it because chinese eat dog-meat?may be!
    link

    08 Mar 2005, 17:46

  403. Ravi kishore

    Is china a jungle or what!It seems that in china the best principle is "survival of the fittest"

    In China, no money means no treatment

    Chicago Tribune | 18 nov
    by Michael A. Lev

    BEIJING - The list of people who let down 25-year-old Huang Jin Bao – who, in fact, left him for dead by the side of the road – includes the police officers who ignored him and the ambulance driver who refused to pick him up because he had no money.

    There was also the manager of the luxury townhouse development who took no interest in Huang's nearly lifeless body lying just outside his property, even though the incident began when one of the development's subcontractors fled without paying Huang's $800 salary.

    This was why Huang, an itinerant carpenter, was standing outside Merlin Champagne Town with other construction workers demanding their money, when a black Volkswagen sedan sped out of the parking lot and badly injured him.

    For hours afterward, Huang lay unconscious, with a broken ankle and other injuries, disregarded by the development's security guards and passers-by.

    The police came and went, taking little notice. The ambulance driver, too, had no interest. When a second police patrol later grudgingly took Huang to a hospital – dumping him and several friends at the gate – doctors turned him away because he could not pay.

    So Huang's friends, who also were fleeced by the construction boss, took him home. The next morning they carried him back to the driveway of Merlin Champagne Town. There they laid him, still dazed, on a cheap blanket as they wondered how to raise the $370 needed to get him medical care.

    In China, it is survival of the fittest. It is a striking fact never addressed by the communist leadership that some of the biggest social problems facing China today – the big gap between rich and poor, the exploitation of peasants – are the same type of woes that led to the revolution of 1949.

    The sense of enforced community that came with Chairman Mao's era is long gone, replaced by a burgeoning free-market economic system that rewards hard work but is not developed enough to offer protection to those who are vulnerable.

    There are no broad government programs to guarantee medical help for indigents and only a weak culture of reaching out to strangers in need.

    Chinese people in trouble will look for help from friends, people from the same hometown or business partners, but there is little sense of trust among people who don't know one another. Perhaps it is because China is overburdened by its population of 1.3 billion, making it impossible for people to feel responsible for everyone they see in need. Many people also ascribe a loss of public spiritedness to the horrors of the Cultural Revolution, in which minding your own business was a matter of survival.

    There are few charities in China because the authoritarian government does not easily ease its controls to encourage private groups to organize. Religion, too, with its teachings of compassion or being a good Samaritan, represents only a small voice in a society where the government promotes atheism.

    In the end, it may have been that Huang was ignored out of a simple concern that whoever took him to the hospital would get stuck with the medical bill.

    The government acknowledges the need to create a social safety net. But in the whirl of a country in transition from communism to capitalism, the system of overseeing the 100 million migrant workers like Huang who leave their peasant villages to strike it rich in the city is chaotic.

    08 Mar 2005, 18:08

  404. Ravi kishore

    CONTINUING THE ABOVE ARTICLE

    In general, migrant workers are treated as low-status outsiders who get little respect. Many, like Huang, who has only a seventh-grade education, are barely literate. There are hundreds of thousands of these itinerant construction workers in Beijing. They move from city to city, job to job, and get no medical benefits. They are paid annually and are at risk of being cheated.

    In the hospital that initially rejected Huang but where he eventually got treatment because a foreigner agreed to pay, the man in the next bed, a 58-year-old construction worker, suffered a crushed leg in a dump truck accident. The truck owner agreed to pay for his $1,000 operation.

    For Huang, there was no responsible party to ask. The man in the Volkswagen drove off, and the subcontractor who hired Huang disappeared several months ago, leaving behind a note promising to pay his salary by mid-October.

    Huang and about 10 others were pestering the management of Merlin Champagne Town to make good on the subcontractor's debt, but management refused, claiming no responsibility.

    Fed up, Huang was trying to block cars when the man in the Volkswagen was leaving. Assuming the man worked for the project, Huang was leaning into the open passenger-side window to say something when the driver roared off, Huang clinging desperately to the car, according to several witnesses.

    The driver tore down the street, increasing in speed and then swerving in an attempt to dislodge Huang. After 200 yards, with Huang still holding on, the driver skidded into a tight circle. On the second turn, Huang was flung away. His leg was run over, and he struck his head on the street.

    "When I saw him lying there, I thought he was dead," said Zhang Guo Guang, one of Huang's friends.

    People crowded around Huang, but no one sought help. It was 45 minutes before a traffic cop stopped. He said an ambulance was responsible for taking him to the hospital, but it took 30 more minutes for one to arrive. The driver bandaged Huang's hand but would do no more without assurances that someone would cover the costs.

    A second police car arrived after 90 minutes. The officer rejected an offer by an unidentified foreign woman to pay for Huang's care, most likely concerned that her intervention would be seen as a loss of face for the Chinese government. He eventually agreed to transport Huang to the hospital. The doctors would not treat him.

    "We're not a charity," a ward nurse explained later.

    The morning after the incident, Huang was in bad shape, listless and semi-coherent, when he was placed in front of Merlin Champaign Town. His friends hoped to draw attention to his situation, but the compound's security guards refused to intervene, except to call the police, who again came and left.

    "We're the disadvantaged people," said Wei Bao An, another construction worker friend, as he stood watch over Huang. "We're poor. Nobody cares. The police are on the side of the rich. Who is on the side of the common man?"

    Twenty-four hours after the accident, an American discovered Huang and took him to the hospital, agreeing to pay the $370 deposit required for treatment. An X-ray technician determined Huang had a fractured ankle. A doctor determined his head injury was minor and would heal quickly.

    08 Mar 2005, 18:11

  405. Ravi kishore

    CONTINUING THE ABOVE ARTICLE

    Police took only a casual interest in finding the driver of the Volkswagen. After prodding by the foreigner who rescued the man, they spoke to managers at Merlin Champagne Town, who, according to the investigating officer, said the security camera trained on the front gate malfunctioned or the tape was erased because the time around the accident came up blank.

    Huang's friends suspect the driver works for the real estate company.

    A week after the incident, one of the managers of Merlin Champagne Town, Chen Lian Hong, slammed down the phone when he received a query from a reporter about the accident.

    He called back 20 minutes later, apologizing and explaining that the image of his development was important to him. "I'm sympathetic," he said, explaining that he bought bottles of water for the migrants who were protesting their lack of pay.

    Chen took no responsibility for the traffic incident or for the salaries owed by a subcontractor to a dozen men who helped build the $60 million luxury townhouse project. He said the driver of the Volkswagen was a prospective buyer who came to pick up a brochure but did not leave a name or telephone number. He denied that someone erased the security tape.

    "From the perspective of morality," Chen said, "we do hope to solve this problem as soon as possible. The key is to find the driver. He should be responsible."

    Otherwise, he wondered, "Who is going to pay the medical bills of a migrant?"

    Huang left the hospital after a few days, having had an operation to place a stabilizing pin in his ankle. He still wants his money.

    08 Mar 2005, 18:14

  406. Ravi kishore

    Critics say Chinese biology and medicine are uncontrolled – a sort of 'wild east'

    link

    08 Mar 2005, 18:18

  407. New Yorker

    Aruni,

    Apparently I can not persuade you and you can not persuade me. I guess that is it, like the way most debates end up. And I will not even try to make any more efforts to convince any Indians here in your blog.

    I still think it is a shame on all you Indians that your politicians saying " …...best way to be remembered…........is to transform Mumbai into Shanghai….........." because some other Indian politicians also said " China is an bloody dictatorship not worth any democratically elected indian politicians visiting…..............". I hereby strongly suggest you give up your plan on visiting Shanghai, and go back to India trying to persuade your people to forget about China, stop compare your country against China, stop transforming Mumbai to Shanghai, stop companies like Infosys from operating in Shanghai…..............and stop anything that has something to do with China, simply because I do not like that, the Chinese people do not like that. It is a shame on us if anyone of us, at any time, try to compare any place in China against any place in India. Would you guys leave us alone ??? please !

    I just changed my mind, I won't visit any part of India as I said in one of my previous posts————not worth it !

    08 Mar 2005, 18:34

  408. Ravi kishore

    Bad news for New yorker and Hu zhen yu,
    link

    08 Mar 2005, 18:39

  409. New Yorker

    Give you guys a glimpse of how racist can the Indians be:

    link

    It is essential that the Olive and Brown Indo-Aryan
    South Asian Hindus, Buddhists and Sikhists
    massively increase their immigration levels into
    the UK. Also it is imperative that the birthrate
    amongst South Asians already living in the UK is
    fiurther increased so the indigeneous White
    Anglo Saxon English monkey people are drive out
    and becoem scared of living on the inner cities of
    the UK like London, Birmingham, Manchester,
    Liverpool, Nottingham, Bristol, Glasgow,
    Edinburgh and Cardiff. It is essential for those ex-
    pat South Asian Indians living there to increase
    the money they are sending home to Mother India
    and Mother Asia in general. We are the most
    educated, intelligent and powerful nation on
    Planet Earth. We can bugger all the White
    Europeans, White English and White Amerikans
    without even sniffing. You know it. I know it and
    they all are crapping their arses and underwear
    over our inner strength, enthusiasm and
    aggression. We Olive and Brown South Asian
    Indian men are better in bed with White English
    and European women than ugly Pinkies ever will
    be. We are the true master race. Long live Mother
    India and Mother Asia! All Hindus, Buddhists and
    Sikhist men, women and children are blessed
    who live in Mother India all those wonderful South
    Asians that live and work overseas!

    08 Mar 2005, 19:03

  410. New Yorker

    Another example. Countless Indian forms are fulll of these extreme racist crap.

    link

    This Amnesty International report does not
    suprise me in the least. White Amerikans who are
    caught involved in any criminal act in any city in
    Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka or
    Bangladesh is apparently very badly mistreated
    by the inmates of those prisons concerned. They
    are shat on, spunked on and urinated on then
    enslaved for sexual pleasures and rentboys. I
    guess these KKK Honkeystani Whiteys just
    cannot grasped the reasons why so many Olive
    and Brown South Asian Indian Hindus and
    Sikhists hate them so much. Well all you have to
    do is look at the way these White Sodomists treat
    South Asian men, women and children in Nazi
    Amerika. We are spat at, laughed at, attacked,
    tortured, molested and harrassed and then
    physically abused and spat on in their police
    stations and prisons. South Asian people are
    now so violent and fed up with these dissident
    White traitors. We are the true Aryan race, not
    these inferior and genetically defective sub-White
    Whores. We are the true Aryans, the Indo-Aryan
    South Asians of true bloodstock and good
    breeding, so piss off Shite White Amerika,
    because your nations days are now numbered!

    08 Mar 2005, 19:11

  411. New Yorker

    Evidence that China is way behind India, hahaha

    link

    Private in my discussion with John Major I was glad top note John Major is an honest man. He mentioned to me that China is a very backward country and India much more advanced. Major mentioned some people mention big things about China (all false) in order to maintain the fake global order. John you have brains indeed Communist China is way behind India.
    Sardar Boota Singh Mazhabi-Sikh

    08 Mar 2005, 19:15

  412. New Yorker

    Indians always succeed in finding excuses for anything.

    The Indian reporters will pick up any fake data and have it published in India without checking its truthfullness. Take for eample a photo with a wrong information sent out by AP/PTI claiming that Mustafa Karagollu was a Tunisian, while it is well known that this man is a Turk. This is not an error but is politically motivated.
    1) Read this from the Turkish press.Athens 2004 Olympic Games – Turkey To Attend With 67 Competitors In 10 Categories
    Anadolu Agency: 8/2/2004
    ANKARA - Turkey will attend Athens 2004 Olympic Games, which will be held between August 13 and 29, with 67 competitors in 10 categories.

    Turkish State Minister and Deputy Prime Minister Mehmet Ali Sahin and Youth and Sports General Director Mehmet Atalay held a news conference in Ankara and announced the names of the Turkish athletes which will participate in Olympic Games.

    Boxing:

    Coaches: Ahmet Uygur, Nazim Dalkiran and Esalettin Pekdogan

    Competitors: Atagun Yalcinkaya (48 kg), Sedat Tasci (57 kg), Selcuk Aydin (60 kg), Mustafa Karagollu (64 kg), Bulent Ulusoy (69 kg), Serdar Ustuner (75 kg), Ihsan Yildirim Tarhan (81 kg), Ertugrul Ergezen (91 kg)

    FROM THE TRIBUNE
    India's Vijendra, right, throws a punch at Tunisia's Mustafa Karagollu during the light welterweight boxing preliminaries of the Olympic Games at the Peristeri Boxing Hall in Athens on Sunday. Karagollu won the bout. ? AP/PTI photo

    2) The Rediff on Net (a foreign agency) has a foreign agent Srinivasan.
    Dear Mr. Srinivasan no one can change the Indian history. The Great Dr. M.M. Joshi has seen to it that a factual history of India will stay in India.
    Some accurate interpretations of Dr. M.M. Joshi are: That The Aryan race is native to India. The Indians have been and are idol worshippers.

    #) Coming to Milkha Singh. Milkha is a great athlete but stupid. Even a fool will not copy China. China is a very backward country and like most Communist countries forces its talented children to practice a discipline for the propaganda of the state and do nothing else. These children rarely even see their parents and a centralized system pours resources for propaganda purposes into sports. The aim is to make a backward state look modern. Even a country of 20 million people Ausralia has a large amount of medals. While we must copy no one in sports we might learn from democracies like Australia. India has some strong areas such as Freestyle wrestling, shooting, track women, weightlifting women, boxing, throws men and women (we are the best in Asia in throws), women track, these areas must be further pursued in India.

    08 Mar 2005, 19:45

  413. Ravi kishore

    Now, new yorker is so desperate that he is not even leaving chat rooms alone to prove his "indians are racist" bull shit.since he did not get any authentic websites to prove his point,now he is after chat rooms,hoping at least there he could send somethibg to show off.

    But my friend theer is one draw back here.Chat rooms are the places where emotions usually run high.so even if some people uses offensive posts,that should not be taken as serious and as facts.
    by ur criterion,i can show off the chinese posts in this blog and claim that all the chinkees are racist bigots who dont even have normal kind of desency.

    08 Mar 2005, 19:46

  414. Ravi kishore

    Chinese attitude towards educated women, man these chinkees are disgusting.

    www.chinaview.cn 2005–03-04 14:04:20

    BEIJING, Mar. 4 — Li Fei faces a hard choice. On the one hand, her good academic performance during the past two years' study for a master's degree has won her a chance to pursue a PhD directly.

    Yet on the other, almost all her friends are trying to persuade her to quit further study.

    " 'Otherwise you will find it super-difficult to find a husband,' that's what they say to me," Li said.

    "Their worries are not groundless," she said. "There are too many negative judgments about highly educated women. The very title 'Doctor' so gorgeous when ornamenting a man, turns into a derogatory term when applied to women."

    According to Li, women after acquiring too much knowledge are believed to become "dried up, boring, and even no longer a woman at all."

    Jokes about women PhDs are not rare, for instance: "There are three types of people in the world 'men, women and women PhDs.'"

    Another joke quite popular among young Chinese compares educated women to the women characters in well-known writer Jin Yong's famous kungfu novels.

    In the joke, women with bachelor's degrees are called Huang Rong (depicted in the original novel as clever and beautiful), but women's image worsens as their educational attainment increases.

    When it reaches the level of a PhD, women are compared to Miejueshitai (old nuns who have acquired good kungfu skills but become cruel, fierce and ugly).

    These jokes have an effect.

    Li has a neighbour who has earned a PhD. The woman is not ugly at all, but she still hasn't been able to find a husband, even though she is already in her 30s.

    Many men don't even want to see her photo when they hear about her awesome degree, let alone considering dating her.

    "Although the country is getting more open-minded in many ways, the prejudice against women PhDs has not reduced. Instead, it is getting more serious," said Yu Jian, manager of a local match-making agency.

    He cited one example, saying that not long ago in Nanjing in Jiangsu Province, a woman PhD holder, in fear that her high degree would drive men away, had written on the matchmaking agency form that her education attainment stopped at the bachelor level.

    The situation turns out to be no better here, despite the city's image as China's biggest centre of avant-garde thought.

    In Yu's agency, about 10 per cent of young women clients are women PhDs, and he predicts that the figure will continue to grow.

    Although he hates to say "sorry" to any of his clients, over 70 per cent of the women PhDs who come to the agency for help are simply turned away.

    "I couldn't find a match for them from my agency," Yu said. "So out of a sense of responsibility, the only thing I could do was to decline them directly and ask them to try their luck with other agencies. But most probably they would just face the same answer in any other places."

    08 Mar 2005, 19:51

  415. Ravi kishore

    Traditional ideas

    There are several reasons for the unpopularity of women PhDs, but the most important one is probably still the Chinese traditional ideal of "stronger men, weaker women."

    "A man tends to look for a wife who is less capable than himself. In this sense, the only men who would feel free to marry a woman PhD would be those with PhDs or even higher qualifications themselves," Yu said.

    It is not only men who think like that. Many women also hold the same beliefs. Of the women PhD clients Yu directly turned away, most had insisted on finding a man who was at least their equal in education attainments. Many even attempted to find men with PhDs in the same field.

    "The fact is, men with high degrees are quite popular among women," Yu said. "They have many more choices."

    The women PhD holders who agreed to lower their requirements also had problems.

    "Men want to lead a more light-spirited life, but that could be hard to achieve if they marry women PhDs," Yu said.

    "Traditional ideas would lead them to feel embarrassed if they are less capable than their highly educated wives. They would have to work hard to prove they are actually more able than their wives, if not in academic respects, at least in others."

    At Yu's agency only half of the women PhDs who lowered their requirements succeed in finding a boyfriend, with the search typically requiring great patience.

    "Many women PhDs are too negligent about their appearance, which is another reason for their unpopularity," he said.

    "They spend too much time on their studies. The lack of contact with the wider society has led many of them to still dress in the school girls' style," he said.

    Seeing eye to eye with Yu, Zheng Jie (not his real name) a PhD student at Jiaotong University, said many women PhDs he saw on campus dressed too plainly.

    "It seems to me that none of them knows how to use make-up," he said. "They have no fashion sense, but marriage has something to do with sex. Without looking attractive, how can they expect someone to fall in love with them?"

    Unequal perceptions

    Zhou Meizhen, a woman scholar with the Shanghai Women Cadres College, has a different view.

    "It only shows how the inequality between the two genders is still serious," she said. "Although women have won education rights, the society's old ideology that 'women are virtuous only when they are illiterate' is still influencing people's thinking."

    People tend to require that women be lovely and pretty, but they never require a man to look lovely.

    When women are negligent about fashion, they are said to have lost their femininity, but people never say a man is not like a man if he doesn't pay careful attention to his appearance, Zhou said.

    When women's traditional image is broken by women PhDs, society starts looking at them in a twisted way.

    Their rationality, determination, obstinacy and decisiveness 'all advantages in men' become weak points in women, especially when talking about marriage, she added.

    Zhou considered the difficulties faced by women PhDs when seeking boyfriends to be quite deep rooted and unlikely to disappear until society accepted women as more than consumable items for viewing and enjoying.

    Zhou advised women PhDs to be less picky, since trying to find a boyfriend with qualification as impressive as their own would inevitably narrow their range of choice.

    "Also, they should try to divert a little of their attention from their studies to the men around them," she said.

    (Source: Shanghai Star)

    08 Mar 2005, 19:52

  416. Ravi kishore

    This is really hilarious

    communist part officials running to temples and burning joss sticks.
    link

    08 Mar 2005, 20:03

  417. Hu ZhenYu

    Let's call an end for this debate.
    The final result is, Chinese agree India is better. Are you happy now?

    My Chinese friends, it was fun to met you guys. Now it is time to get back to work.

    08 Mar 2005, 23:20

  418. Iron Farmer

    Aruni and KissHole,
    a cuty pair of Indian, a nice show.
    You come together, type together, leave together.
    One play in good, one play in bad.
    Aruni has right brain, KissHole has left.
    You actually the same person.

    09 Mar 2005, 02:37

  419. Ravi kishore

    Hu zhen yu,

    There was no competition here.its the chinese through out the debate who tried to put indians down.We indians are only trying to counter that.

    nice to meet you.

    09 Mar 2005, 07:18

  420. Ravi kishore

    Iron farmer,

    I think ur iron got rusted beyond recognition.Me and Aruni same person! Ha Ha Ha
    are u our of ur brain!

    ah! i forgot when did chinkees have brains.

    09 Mar 2005, 07:26

  421. Ravi kishore

    To that chinkee pig called "indian fucker",

    Barking dogs dont bite.I will not stoop to ur level and abuse ur mother and family members.After all,i am an indian,not a chinkee.

    One more thing,if u want my photograph,il give u,then u can advertize that in the main land telivision itself.what do u say!

    09 Mar 2005, 07:46

  422. To all posters-

    This blog was actually holding a very sane and civil discussion until the last few days, when a storm of new Chinese users came and started posting nothing but abuse and rubbish. If this speaks for how the Chinese debate, then it is safe to say that it is simply because they are not used to criticism and do not take it well. Is this the real face of China?

    Come on Chinese users and prove us wrong.

    Iron Farmer

    Be rest assured that I do not need to take on an Avatar to defend my points. I do know Ravi from another internet forum. If you want to check, you can visit “Protonriver Forums”:http://www.protonriver.com/forums and find out for yourself.

    New Yorker

    I summarised all your arguments in my last post and I have shown you numerous times how fallacious they are and how many times they have been refuted on your blog. If you still cannot recognise the fact that Mumbai aspires to emulate Shanghai’s market friendly policies and superior planning and not the socialist dictatorship garbage we have always criticised, then you seriously need help.

    About the overall debate, I thought we found common ground earlier that close relationships between India and China are mutually beneficial for 2.4 billion of their people. However, ground realities are to be kept in mind (Arunachal part of India, Tibet de facto occupied by China) and each others’ strength/weaknesses acknowledged.

    09 Mar 2005, 09:13

  423. Ravi kishore

    bark how much u want to bark.After all chinkees are famous for barking.

    Taiwan thinking of constitutional retaliation for chinas "anti-seccession law"
    link~
    Chinas action is a classic case of chinkee behaviour.All bark,no bite.

    09 Mar 2005, 16:54

  424. Ravi kishore

    new yorker and The chinkee pig called "indian fucker",

    you are making me laugh with ur actions.

    Any way,Talking of sex,this is the attitude of the chinese towards sex and STD'S including aids.

    A recent Chinese survey found 40% couldn't name one way to stop Aids.
    From BBC,
    link

    This is from china daily
    Facing up to student sex

    www.chinaview.cn 2004–11-26 09:29:04

    BEIJING, Nov. 26 (Xinhuanet) — Sex education should not be avoided in colleges, says an article in Beijing Youth Daily. An excerpt follows:

    Medical staff have been visiting institutions of higher education in Beijing to spread knowledge about preventing AIDS and distribute free condoms.

    The colleges have responded to them differently. In some, the condoms have been confiscated by college managers, while in others, they have been distributed to the students, or even fallen short of supply.

    The different attitudes does not reflect the reality of sexual activity in places of higher learning, but the thinking of the various managers.

    Sex education has been something of a dilemma in China in recent years. The government and some non-government organizations have called to promote sex education to prevent and control AIDS, but educators have shown their concerns about the "side effects" of such education. They worry it will lead to "improper sex" as Chinese society is still supposed to respect fidelity.

    To be open or conservative? The college managers have to make a choice.

    From the management perspective, they are afraid that allowing distribution of condoms might send the wrong signal to students and encourage them to have sex.

    At the very least, it is a sign of progress that managers allow the contraceptives into the ivory towers at all.

    But whether they like it or not, college students have been listed as one of the high-risk groups for sex-transmitted diseases. Education on safe sex should no longer be sidestepped for prudishness.

    A realistic attitude towards sex education is not only wise, it could be a life-saver.Enditem

    (China Daily)

    09 Mar 2005, 18:47

  425. Ravi kishore

    China's homo-sexual crises

    Male homosexuals estimated up to 12.5m

    www.chinaview.cn 2004–12-02

    BEIJING, Dec. 2 (Xinhuanet) — More public attention is needed on the plight of homosexuals who face the threat of HIV/AIDS, experts say.

    Male homosexuals, seen in public places, such as gay bars, parks, and public baths, account for 0.9 per cent of all grown men between 15 to 55, according to a survey.

    The results were reported by Wu Yuhua, an expert from the Disease Control Centre of Northeast China's Heilongjiang Province.

    He said the findings came from Harbin, the capital of the province, during April to August of this year.

    "Many male homosexuals do not appear at public places at all, so we could only compute a percentage of the gay population," Wu told China Daily yesterday.

    Nationwide, the number of male homosexuals is estimated to be about 5 million to 12.5 million, accounting for 2 to 4 per cent of the adult male population, said Zhang Baichuan, an expert on gay issues based in Qingdao, a coastal city in East China's Shandong Province.

    But according to Wu's figures tabulated in Harbin, the number of gays in China may reach 2.25 million nationwide.

    Meanwhile, Wu's survey at two public baths in Harbin shows that, among 148 male homosexuals, two men were confirmed as HIV positive as a result of urine tests.

    If this figure was extended to the total population, the prevalence of HIV among gays would be 1.35 per cent, Wu said.

    Wu's centre is the only surveillance site licensed by Chinese Centre for Disease Control and Prevention that has investigated the numbers of the gay population and the spread of HIV among gays.

    This is the first time for China's public health agencies to have organized such a survey and to release the results.

    Wu's findings are also the main basis for a joint assessment of the HIV/AIDS epidemic among the male homosexual population.

    An assessment of China's HIV/AIDS control and prevention says that more than 1 per cent of the male homosexuals in Beijing, Harbin, Guangzhou, Shenyang and other cities have been infected with the virus.

    That assessment, issued by the Ministry of Health and the United Nations Theme Group on HIV/AIDS on Tuesday, says that many gays do not use condoms.

    For example, in Xi'an, capital city of Shaan'xi Province, 38.5 per cent of surveyed gays have not used condoms in the past six months.

    HIV-infected male homosexuals account for about 11.1 per cent of all the HIV positive cases in the country.

    The number of female homosexuals, also called lesbians, is much less than that of males and they have a much lower danger of spreading HIV, experts noted.

    Chinese public health workers should provide better healthcare services and other comprehensive support, such as psychological care, for homosexuals to prevent wider spread of the virus, said Wu Yuhua.

    Now, hundreds of gays in China have become volunteers of protect the rights of homosexuals in health, marriage and other fields.

    With the support of local medical organizations, these volunteers and public health workers have carried out many activities in recent years, said Zhang Baichuan.

    (China Daily)

    09 Mar 2005, 18:53

  426. Ravi kishore

    Shenzhen has 70,000 homosexuals

    www.chinaview.cn 2004–12-06 11:07:44

    SHENZHEN, Dec. 6 (Xinhuanet) — Three are about 70,000 homosexuals in Shenzhen, the Daily Sunshine reported Saturday.

    The city’s chronic disease hospital has purchased 50,000 special condoms to give homosexuals free of charge. The risk of catching venereal diseases and HIV/AIDS is higher in the homosexual community.

    The hospital said a package test for venereal diseases and HIV/AIDS was now inexpensive with new methods authorized by the European Union. Previously it cost hundreds of yuan.

    The number of anti-AIDS service centers in Shenzhen has increased from three to six, covering Xincun, Liancheng, Shazui, Ailian, Dawang and Shangchuan, according to a forum on Sino-EU anti-AIDS projects.

    Seven World Health Organization programs to control venereal diseases and HIV/AIDS are being conducted in Shenzhen.

    (Shenzhen Daily)

    09 Mar 2005, 18:56

  427. Ravi kishore

    To the chinese fuckers

    At Last,the truth is slowly out bits and pieces,

    civil unrest in china

    link

    09 Mar 2005, 20:15

  428. Indian

    Folks, just to level some facts about China:

    Yes, China was a pioneer in credit banking, paper money, gun powder. You want to know what India gave the world:

    Mathematics, Decimal System, Astronomy, Medicine, Linguistics. It is a very well established fact that the Arabs helped transmit Indian mathematics to Europe. Voltaire, Paul Deussen, Nietzsche were strongly influenced by Hindu thought – and so were the Chinese, Koreans, Tibetans, Japanese.

    I do not understand why some Indians here are so pissed with a minor skirmish in 1962 which has no meaning. There are lots of avenues to explore which is mutually beneficial to both China and India.

    I have seen how hard chinese work and I respect them. But hard work is not enough. Team work, communication (which many Chinese say we are good at talking), leading and forming bureaucratic organisations are very important.

    Some Indian products: Web-based Email – pioneered by Indian Sabeer Bhatia – Hotmail. Vinodh Dham – co-creator of Pentium. I agree India is not a conducive area for innovation and business. But Indians have shown in the US how talented they can be.

    There is little creativity among the Chinese. Even Cherry, the Chinese 'national' car is a rip off of GM. One can judged the immense amount of fake goods, poor copyright protection, patent infringement.

    And please stop referring to Indians as lacking creativity. We can speak English and write in English better than most Englishmen.

    You have to excuse me for being an expert. China has been invaded many times. Does Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's visit to Yasukuni ring a bell?

    You should go down to Chennai to see Hyundai's state of the art factory. Cars MADE IN INDIA are exported to Italy where they are one of the best.

    10 Mar 2005, 08:46

  429. Hu ZhenYu

    To India;

    I have said many times if India want to get respect from the rest of world, you need more than Hotmail. Here is something you can do.

    1) Olympic, win some medal. Make a good performance in 2008. You really need it. Chinese army, does not respect India, mostly due to India's poor sports performance, how can a nation with such kind of physical condition fight?
    2) UNSC seat, get it, not just apply.
    3) Kasmir, take it as a whole, just do it, do not just talk.
    4) Pakistan, trash it.

    Make a plan, put up a time table, and start doing. Other wise you get no respect.
    Also remeber, NASA boy like achievements is not good enough.

    10 Mar 2005, 09:12

  430. Indian

    Hu Zhen Yu,

    Only a retard will think that performance in sports equals military might. What use is gymnastics when nuclear bombs are roasting you?

    There are some ways China can get respect:

    1.) Obey international patents (Huawei, please note, and John Chambers, i am on your side)
    2.) Release Tibet
    3.) Stop whining when PM Koizumi visits Yasukuni. Is the mighty chinese army afraid of dead men? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
    4.) Using North Korea as a pawn is not going to work

    You must be delusional to think if the joint forces of Japan and India cannot match you. You must be aware that in 1942 Japan and the rebel Indian Army booted the British out of Singapore and much of South East Asia.

    What is more i notice you get emotional whenever Yasukuni comes up. Tch tch….

    10 Mar 2005, 09:37

  431. Indian

    In 1894 – Japan goes to war with China. Japan's better equipped forces win victory in just nine months. This shows how strong China was. In 1857, in India the British could never conquer all of India. Even during the heights of British rule, vast areas of India were under strong native rule.

    And please, we know how well Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese and other foreign companies make use of China's SEZs for manufacturing. Chinese companies are pipsqueaks compared to foreign companies in China.

    It is just a matter of time that India catches up China in manufacturing. As China's average costs and salaries go up, foreign companies will relocate and outsource to India. Already Motorola has outsourced some jobs from Taiwan, Singapore to India.

    10 Mar 2005, 09:46

  432. Indian

    The World Bank definition of poverty is some one living under $2 a day. China adopts a much lower level, while India adheres to world bank standards. So just having 4% of the Chinese population under poverty is as easy to believe as America being conqured by Iraq.

    10 Mar 2005, 09:51

  433. Hu ZhenYu

    Although Chinese hate Japanese, still Japan is good role model for Chinese to learn.

    We Chinese in fact blame ourselves, for all the crime Japan did to China in the Second World War. We Chinese believe in power, survivor of the fittest. In the past, China was a loser, so we get punished, and our people get killed, we deserve it.

    But Mao ZheDong and Chinese communist party had changed all that. It transformed a weak nation into a superpower with ambition.

    Today China is very similar to Japan and Germany before WW2, our policy is based on.

    1)Super nationalist education, the concept of Chinese supremacy is rooted in every Chinese mind. Every Chinese is educated to remember, that we are the best.

    2)Practical policy. For weak nation deal with power, like India, Vietnam, for strong ones like US and Japan, use diplomatically means at this moment.

    3)Never let emotion take control your logically thinking. China is now not in a position to challenging US and go direct conflict with Japan. So do not do it, wait and develop our self silently. When it is ready attack with devastating force. Just like Japan did to Peal Harbor.

    4)Japan did an excellent job in challenging the white man’s world, but it has failed, since it is too small. It does not have the manpower and resource to conquer the world. Now it is China’s turn. Let’s China gives a try.

    5)We can make strategy withdraw temporarily. Like give the Island to Japan, even let Taiwan independent. But our long-term goal is very clear, “Rule the world”. Economically and militarily. We will eventually get every thing back.

    6)You Indian will never understand how deep a Chinese’s mind can be.

    Do not dream Japan will team up with India, yellow man has some thing similar, we all do not like blacks.

    10 Mar 2005, 10:09

  434. I quote Hu Zhen Yu, 'Japan is a good role model for China to follow'. So, years of enmity mean nothing when it comes to emulating economic models of growth. Therein lies Mumbai's attitude towards Shanghai. Look, you said it yourself buddy.

    I am rather disturbed by your hailing of 'yellow man brotherhood'. It makes you sound like the Islamic brotherhood ideas which you hate so much. Are you full of distortions Hu Zhen Yu?

    I have deleted all filth filled posts and will continue to do the same.

    10 Mar 2005, 12:44

  435. Ravi kishore

    Again this chinkee assholes are ranting the same bull shit.
    japanese hate chinese.They think chinks are inferior people.man,no body likes chinks.I dont know why

    Hu zhen yu,

    we indians know how deep a chinese can think.
    Ex-1.A chinese think that getting some sports medal makes a country great power.

    2.A chinese think all yellow have something similar,even though the japanee,Vietnamese and not to speak of taiwanese hate them.

    3.A chinese thinks indians are black.

    4.A chinese think(or love to think!) India is not an emerging power,although the facts speak otherwise.

    5.A chinese loves dog meat.

    10 Mar 2005, 12:52

  436. Hu ZhenYu

    How can India be a power, you can not even kill Pakistan?

    Pakistan is China's gift to India.
    So enjoy "Pakistan assured total destruction !" :-)

    There is no need for China to deal with India personally, we can simply use Pakistan to keep India forever headache. You guys are settled.
    Go ahead Pakistan, it is Ala's will to convert Hindu into Muslim.

    10 Mar 2005, 14:18

  437. stone Liu

    Indian, what indian have in Chennai is nothing but a Hyundai's assembly plant. that means using Korean-owned technique and imported Korean car parts, assemble cars by Indian's cheap labour. of course the Korean take most of the profit away. This kind of "cooperative enterprises" had emerged in China 20 years ago, now you can find hundreds of them( cooperative with German, France, Japanese, Korean etc). The Chinese "cooperative enterprises"-produced cars mainly sold in China because China has a very large domestic market.
    Cherry is not the first Chinese company that has the full ownership of her technique on producing and design cars, but Cherry is the first one to make a market success. now Cherry is exporting her self-designed and made cars to US, every bolt of them is made in China and every technique details is figured out by Chinese designers. The westeners felt so sour on Cherry that they would rather like to believe Cherry "ripped off" foreign cars. Of course after being re-invented, wheels are all similiar. after all, westener don't like to believe Chinese can do whatever they can do, let them rant, hehe… The most important thing is, now Chinese private company can design and manufacture commercial cars of good quality WITHOUT any foreign surpport.
    Cherry has already signed a treatment with Iranian to setup Cherry factories in Iran, using Cherry's technique and management, tegother with Iranian workers, produce cars targeting Iran market. See, Chinese are doing the same thing as that Korean are doing in India and other advanced countries had done in China. This is absolutely a higher stage. Applaud to Cherry! Indian should see the gap and try to catch up, not to boast your assembly plants anymore.

    10 Mar 2005, 14:42

  438. stone Liu

    a link on Chinese Chery cars: "Chery Car Export Expected to Hit 10,000 Units"
    link

    an other link about Chery's abroad production in Iran: " … China owns all the intellectual property rights to Chery cars, which are exported to Iran and in popular demand there…"
    link

    10 Mar 2005, 15:16

  439. stone Liu

    A short report given by World Market Research Center(WMRC), named: Chinese car-makers set to challenge foreign original equipment makers in the domestic market". giving comprehensive views of Chinese car market and Chinese car-makers' growth.
    link

    10 Mar 2005, 15:29

  440. Ravi kishore

    hu zhen yu,

    great power has nothing to do with defeating pakistan.after all,china is sitting in unsc without defeating taiwan or japan.

    yeah china is using pakis as guneia pigs to nutralise india.Is fear of india so much that china was even prepared to give nukes to a rougue islamic nation just to nutralise india.

    am i missing something?

    10 Mar 2005, 17:02

  441. Hu ZhenYu

    Ravi, Yes, you are missing something.

    China think, Pakistan is enough to deal with India already. India does not deserve China's personal attention.
    We give Pakistan nuke, just want to make sure the destruction is total. Also makes Western conuntry afraid, so no one will invest in India.

    10 Mar 2005, 17:22

  442. Ravi kishore

    stonue liu,

    "With almost 24% growth in car sales in 2004, India has emerged as the fastest-growing car market in the world, outstripping China's estimated 13.7% growth last year.
    India cannot be compared with China on mere numerical terms since one, the country's auto market is more stable than China's, and two, it has acquired its own growth momentum, says the third BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India, China) report from Goldman Sachs. The report adds that in line with the industry's projection, India will add a million cars a year from next year and sales volumes will overtake Germany by 2010 and Japan by 2012, to become the world's fourth largest market by 2020. And by 2050, Indians will buy every sixth car produced in the world."

    link

    10 Mar 2005, 17:44

  443. Ravi kishore

    Hu zhen yu,

    Got ur point.But the question is

    1.From the chinese point of view,is it worth giving nukes and dangerous tech to a rougue nation,simply because it will check india.Is "india threat" so large on chinas radar screen that it did not think twice before giving nukes to pakis.

    2.did the chinas attempt to nutralise india through pak worked?

    Before i give my opinion i wanted to know the chinese view.

    10 Mar 2005, 17:51

  444. Hu ZhenYu

    Ravi for your question:

    1) Pakistan's nuke is not given by China. Do you have any evidence that it is from China? In the whole world, only India think this way. In fact I do not really know. I think Pakistan developed the nuke by themself.

    2) Yes, it has worked. Because it has successfully associated India and Pakistan together. So every one in the world think India is a Pakistan class power. All the people from sub-continent are the same, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sirilank. Whenever people think about India, they think about Pakistan also.

    black, like curry, no sports talent, always fighter with each other.

    10 Mar 2005, 18:09

  445. Ravi kishore

    Hu zhen yu,

    Dont make a fool of urself.Except some chinese(not even all),no body seriously beleives that pakis "developed" nukes for themselves.Even the pakis themselves claim that their nukes are of chinese origin.If u dont know go and read some papers other than coming here and eating our heads with ur ridiculous knowledge.

    As far as whether china got anyadvantage by giving nukes to the pakis,the answer is no.It messed up the situation without acheiving any chinese objectives.

    chinese objectives is to have no investments in india.but indian investments are growing.
    Another objective is to make india look like pakistan.but india has already crossed south asia and expanding to neighbouring areas.Yes people talk about pakistan when they talk about india.But peopel also talk about Taiwan when they talk about china.So by ur criterion china and taiwan are equal.

    10 Mar 2005, 18:30

  446. Indian

    Hu Zhen Yu,

    You think India is a puny state. Think again. You so called superior intelligence, heck even the CIA's could not intercept our nuclear tests in May 1998. While in the early 60s, the Americans actually depended on us to set up interceptors near the Himalayas to guage your nuclear tests.

    I applaud how you worship Chairman Mao. No need of developing nuclear weapons to kill 30 million people during the "cultural" revolution. Chairman Mao's ideals are more than enough.

    Regarding Japan as a weak state: The Japanese would have a hearty laugh. Boeing outsources production of the fuselage of some of the critical parts of American jet fighters to Japanese.

    Japan has always allied with India before Korea and China. This was in WW1, WW2 and even now. Japan supports India's bid to the UNSC. It is only America that opposes everyone's entry to the UNSC and even disregards the UNSC. Italy opposed Germany.

    China might be a great country, but it makes a bad neighbour. – Japanese diplomat.

    10 Mar 2005, 18:42

  447. Ravi kishore

    The difference between Indian and chinese economies is while India has an economy that is growing from the grassroots, China's economy's roots are not set from the individual up but from the government down.

    The Chinese economy is not really demand driven, it performs/produces under strict guidelines set down by the government. The kind of position and image both enjoy in the eyes of other countries can well be imagined. Foreign investors look at China as a relatively short-term opportunity, where political or internal unrest can wipe out everything at one blow. India on the other hand offers long-term possibilities for growth, even though the returns may not be that huge in the short term.

    10 Mar 2005, 18:55

  448. Hu ZhenYu

    Ravi, India you are all wrong.

    The difference between India and China is you are black we are yellow.

    There is no black man have ever created advanced economy in country scale. Not from Sub-continent not from Africa.
    People from south are generally not so adanced as people from North. Since evolution make them stupid, because they are in south so there is no need to build any thing to survive.

    India race comes from two source Africa and Arab, when you have monkey cross breed with terrist you got India a crazy monkey.

    The average IQ of India is way below China's.

    Well, there are plenty of evidence yellowman has succeeded created success story in country scale.

    10 Mar 2005, 19:26

  449. Ravi kishore

    Hu zhen yu,

    Ur simply barking because u know that in coming years india will beat china head on.Thats the reason ur showing ur frustrations by using racial slant.

    And one more thing,its Indian not India,u chinkee asshole.

    10 Mar 2005, 19:57

  450. Hu ZhenYu

    Well, Indian is an inferior race, that is a scientific fact.
    You and me both know very well. It is only me that first speak it out.

    What is for sure in the future is, 2008 Beijing Olympic. China will be even more shining. India will participate as tourists, that is it. By that time still no UNSC seat, keep on applying buddy, Nice try but not enough.

    10 Mar 2005, 21:03

  451. Ravi kishore

    well the japanese think othsrwise.They think china is the inferior race.
    The scientific fact is china is a dying middle age civilization where most of its population will be middle age and old people. while india is and continueous to be for long time to come an young and energetic nation.

    Face the truth,Hu zhen yu china is a gone case.

    10 Mar 2005, 21:20

  452. Indian

    Hu Zhen Yu,

    Thank you for calling us an inferior race. We wear that badge with proudness. It is only because of black Indians like Mahatma Gandhi that Martin Luther King in America succeeded. Thanks to Chairman Mao, 30 million people succeeded in exiting from earth. That was perhaps the best achievment of China. Not to forget superior chinese race were used as sex slaves by Japanese. The only country the superior Chinese could conquer is Tibet (which had no army).

    10 Mar 2005, 22:21

  453. Indian

    Hu Zhen Yu,

    If any objective person goes through all the comments, he or she would notice that it was you who started picking up the race card. This stems from your own inferiority complex.

    10 Mar 2005, 22:26

  454. Hu ZhenYu

    The NASA boy story, shows India's real inferiority complex. link

    Such thing can only happen in India, 1 billion idiots. A 17 years old school boy take the whole nation for a ride, right to the president.

    10 Mar 2005, 22:34

  455. Indian

    As if there is no fraud in China. What is great about India is that there is a vast system of checks and balances. That is why sections of the Indian media itself debunked the story and not foreign media.

    We all know how well fraud takes place in China. Huawei and Cisco ring a bell? I heard even Viagara was not granted a patent in China. Takes a lot for the small chinese to get an erection doesn't it ;-)

    10 Mar 2005, 23:22

  456. Iron Farmer

    ——————————————————————-

    1. 428 by Indian
      Folks, just to level some facts about China:
      Yes, China was a pioneer in credit banking, paper money, gun powder. You want to know what India gave the world:
      Mathematics, Decimal System, Astronomy, Medicine, Linguistics. It is a very well established fact that the Arabs helped transmit Indian mathematics to Europe. Voltaire, Paul Deussen, Nietzsche were strongly influenced by Hindu thought – and so were the Chinese, Koreans, Tibetans, Japanese.
      There is little creativity among the Chinese. Even Cherry, the Chinese
      ——————————————————————

    LoL, you must stay home decades long. Occasionally hear your friend told you there are 38% of doctors in America are Indians. IF you have chance to read a history books in America, you will know China leaded the world in technology for many sentries. Civilization was from Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron/Steel Age and Semi-conductor Age(today). I don’t want to explain the role Chinese in Bronze Age. Chinese used Iron was about 2000 years before Western civilization. Chinese also invented Decimal place system (14th century BC) – 2300 years ahead of the Western civilization. Paper invented 1400 before Western civilization and printing, gun powder + rocket, Manned flight with kites – 1650 years ahead Western civilization, In war technology, Chemical warfare: poison gas, smoke bombs, tear gas, those only found 2300 years later in Western civilization. More surprisingly was Chinese used Petroleum and natural gas as fuel, a whole 2300 years more advanced than Western civilization.

    === Source: www . computer smiths . com =======
    History of Chinese Invention – The Decimal System of Number
    It was only a few hundred years earlier than India, India learned from Chinese:
    link

    There is a big collection of Chinese invention in timetable, many links are provided:
    link

    11 Mar 2005, 02:05

  457. IndiaSucks

    Slower, lower, weaker: India at the Olympic Games
    India's performance in past Olympics has been, to put it mildly, disappointing. At the Sydney Games four years ago India won just one bronze medal. That was in weightlifting. Tennis provided India with its only medal of the 1996 Atlanta Games, that one also a bronze. Before Athens, the only other medal India had ever won in an individual sport at the Olympics was also a bronze in wrestling at the 1952 Games in Helsinki.
    why does a country with the world's second-largest population produce so few world-class athletes?
    link

    11 Mar 2005, 04:49

  458. IndiaSucks

    Only "Hindu culture" is allowed in India?

    Not my painting, but attack was shameful: Husain
    MUMBAI: On Thursday evening, a mob of Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad strongmen barged into the Garden Gallery at Surat, shattered its glass panels and vandalised some of the paintings on display to protect "Hindu culture".

    link

    11 Mar 2005, 04:59

  459. IndiaSucks

    False tsunami alarm can put a coutry into such panic, what will happen if there is a War broke out or some other emergncies happened? What a week nation without bone inside!
    link
    False tsunami alarm shameful, says BJP
    By Our Special Correspondent

    NEW DELHI, DEC. 31. The Bharatiya Janata Party described as "shameful" yesterday's false alarm on the likelihood of a second tsunami hitting the Andaman and Nicobar Islands and the eastern coast of India already reeling under the disastrous effects of the giant waves that drowned thousands of people and washed off their homes on Sunday.

    "We did not want to complain or point fingers to the shortcomings in the relief work being done, for it was a time to help, not to find fault, but the panic created by the Home Ministry's false alarm on the possibility of yet another tsunami disaster yesterday was shameful … it was a goof up," the party's deputy leader in the Rajya Sabha and spokesperson, Sushma Swaraj, said today.

    Worse was even as the Home Ministry's alarm was being sounded, the Minister of Science and Technology, Kapil Sibal, was describing the warning as totally unnecessary and based on rumours rather than on any scientific evidence.

    11 Mar 2005, 05:13

  460. IndiaSucks

    Poverty alleviation is expected to make better progress in the next 50 years than in the past…....

    A Synopsis by IndiaOneStop.Com

    link

    Even more than 50 years after independence from almost two centuries of British rule, large scale poverty remains the most shameful blot on the face of India.

    India still has the world’s largest number of poor people in a single country. Of its nearly 1 billion inhabitants, an estimated 350–400 million are below the poverty line, 75 per cent of them in the rural areas.

    More than 40 per cent of the population is illiterate, with women, tribal and scheduled castes particularly affected.

    It would be incorrect to say that all poverty reduction programmes have failed. The growth of the middle class (which was virtually non-existent when India became a free nation in August 1947) indicates that economic prosperity has indeed been very impressive in India, but the DISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH has been very uneven.

    The main causes of poverty are illiteracy, a population growth rate by far exceeding the economic growth rate for the better part of the past 50 years, protectionist policies pursued since 1947 to 1991 which prevented large amounts of foreign investment in the country.

    Poverty alleviation is expected to make better progress in the next 50 years than in the past, as a trickle-down effect of the growing middle class. Increasing stress on education, reservation of seats in government jobs and the increasing empowerment of women and the economically weaker sections of society, are also expected to contribute to the alleviation of poverty.

    Eradication of poverty can only be a very long-term goal in India.

    11 Mar 2005, 05:19

  461. Ravi kishore

    China and taiwan are different.

    For Taiwanese blood please read the TRUE HISTORY part of www.taiwannation.com.tw (link) .
    (the only

    English part in that website)

    most Taiwanese are either plain

    people or mountain people (aborigines) in origin according to the
    author Dr.

    Sim.

    Chinese blood in today's Taiwan is really very thin. Some people
    (today's

    Taiwanese) could not accept this concept because they do not wish to

    identify themselves as aborigines (in Han Chinese eyes' and words
    that

    word "aborigines" equals to savage people or barbarians). Since most

    Taiwanese were Hanized or Chinese-nized by Ching Dynasty and the ROC.

    11 Mar 2005, 06:12

  462. Ravi kishore

    Claasic example of chinese aping the western culture and religion.

    Christmas in China

    Ho, ho, hao

    Dec 18th 2003 | BEIJING
    From The Economist print edition

    link

    Cash registers ring out

    VISITORS to the Beijing Aquarium earlier this month might have been surprised at the sight of two divers both dressed as Father Christmas planting a large plastic tree at the bottom of a tank full of sea creatures. The aquarium is under the control of the city government. China officially espouses atheism and is deeply suspicious of religion. But in the interests of encouraging consumer spending, the government is happy to abet a Christmas craze that is sweeping big Chinese cities.

    Officials can relax in the knowledge that Christmas in China has even less to do with celebrating the birth of Jesus than it does in countries supposedly steeped in Christian culture. The government says that only about 1% of the population is Christian. Even the most generous unofficial estimates put the figure at only around 10%. Yet in the space of 15 years or so, Christmas's visible impact on China's main cities has changed from being almost negligible to as in-your-face as it is in the West. Shop windows and office buildings are festooned with Christmas decorations, fairy lights and Christmas trees.

    A Beijing government survey two years ago found that 30% of the capital's residents planned to celebrate Christmas. Of these more than half said they did not know the religious origins of the festival and less than 3% said they wanted to mark Christmas for religious reasons. For the rest it was a pretext to exchange gifts and party with friends.

    Surveys suggest that celebrating Christmas is most popular among young, affluent white-collar workers. Such people see Christmas as a way of enjoying themselves without the pressures of the big family get-togethers of the lunar new year festival, China's most important holiday (which falls on January 22nd next year). In effect it is a more hedonistic, bigger-spending version of Valentine's Day, another increasingly popular import.

    The aquarium is among many venues in Beijing offering Christmas Eve dinner and entertainment for the well heeled (few will celebrate on the day itself because it is a working day). Tickets range from $48 to $140, equivalent to about six months' worth of spending on food for the average urban resident. For this, revellers can enjoy a buffet with a mix of roast turkey and Chinese dishes, more underwater Father Christmases and a “dance-with-sharks” stunt by divers, prudently unencumbered by red robes.

    11 Mar 2005, 06:18

  463. Ravi kishore

    An example of chinese gone nuts.

    A restaurant in south-west China has been fined for offering to serve sushi on the bodies of nearly-naked women, according to media reports. link

    11 Mar 2005, 06:22

  464. Ravi kishore

    China will have the world's worst Aids epidemic by 2020. But the spread of the disease could also hasten political reform. link

    Security Challenges for china Posed by HIV/AIDS
    link

    11 Mar 2005, 06:28

  465. Ravi kishore

    Rebelling against education system.China's educational system stifles creativity and personality.
    link

    A question mark on chinas education system.Poor students held back by debthttp://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004–08/10/content_363715.htm

    Students worried by education costshttp://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004–08/16/content_365633.htm

    China's classrooms as a political battlegroundhttp://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FI17Ad05.html

    11 Mar 2005, 06:41

  466. Indian

    As i figured right, lots of muslimes are masquerading here as Chinese. Some of those muslimes include indian muslimes.

    11 Mar 2005, 07:57

  467. Iron Farmer

    =#432 Indian
    =The World Bank definition of poverty is some one living under $2 a day. China adopts a much lower level, while India adheres to world bank standards. So just having 4% of the Chinese population under poverty is as easy to believe as America being conqured by Iraq.

    $2 a day times 365 days a year. If you make $730 a year, then you are above India poverty line. I see the whole country of India by average is under poverty line which only make $500s a year in 2004.

    So, I can pick up any of you post to prove you are an other Indian liar.

    11 Mar 2005, 13:31

  468. stone Liu

    =#432 Indian
    =The World Bank definition of poverty is some one living under $2 a day. China adopts a much lower level, while India adheres to world bank standards. So just having 4% of the Chinese population under poverty is as easy to believe as America being conqured by Iraq.

    Iron Farmer, you are right. apart from the primary school lecture you gave, I have another point.

    "The World Bank definition of poverty is some one living under $2 a day", but $2 means different purchasing power in different countries. Say, in China, $2 could be used to buy 5 burgers while it values only 1 burger in Germany. So if "China adopts a much lower level (on poverty line)", that is quite reasonable and wise. and "while India adheres to world bank standards", why? why Indian always take westen standards for granted regardless Indian circumstance? use your own brain, don't parrot westeners.

    11 Mar 2005, 14:24

  469. Stone Liu

    The point about purchasing power parity can be used in the case of India too. In fact, India is almost equally if not more cheap than China to live in. The Government of India measures the poverty like by nutrient intake by which I believe 26% of the population is below the poverty line. The World Bank estimates that 35% of the people live on less than $1/day. I feel this is a very fair way of ignoring the cost of living and focussing on consumption. In the case of China, whereas the government claims that only 5% of the people are below the poverty line, the World Bank estimates that 17% of the population or 200 million people live on less than $1/day.

    Now given that China is more expensive to live in than India, surely those 200 million people are suffering more than a person with a $1 income per day would suffer in India. Hypothetically if we were to say that you need $2/day to live on the same living standards, how much will the poverty number go up by?

    Now we see who really does the distortion in interpreting statistics.

    For users who are just here to flame (Indian and Chinese), please leave and rid us of your stupidity and save me the trouble of deleting your posts. If you can carry on constructively, only then participate.

    11 Mar 2005, 14:35

  470. Stone Liu

    You are mistaking comparing the absolute number of people in poverty in China vis-a-vis India when I was focusing on comparing the poor themselves. Read my last post again and think carefully about the definition of poverty in India and China and how it affects the people concerned.

    I subscribe to The Economist, and last week's special on India and China should be very useful to all readers here. I am glad you brought it up.

    The bottom line is- India needs to learn from China economically (both from its achievments and mistakes), and China needs to learn the beauty of pluralism, democracy and freedom from India.

    11 Mar 2005, 18:42

  471. Iron Farmer

    =="The World Bank definition of poverty is some one living under $2 a day",

    That is BS, WorldBank or UN standard is $1/day in real money for poor
    country. If you spend/enjoy less than $1 in exchange rate then is poverty.
    In the US or EU, the standard is much higher, $1/day is not poverty, it
    is already a dead bone there. The US poverty line is around $8,000/year
    to $9,000 income per 1-head family, $11,000 to $12,000/year per 2-heads.
    less than that is poverty.

    ==re China and India poverty line.
    both adopted UN standard, $1/day. However, Chinese government divided
    lands to every Chinese, and guarantee every family has it own home,
    (Home in China is a house or an apartment unit, not space under a tree)
    no matter in cities, towns or villages. They have basic 'tools' can
    survive for a year without spend a penny. I means 99% of them only
    exception is if you are really sick. These Chinese can off cause sell extra
    food product to market. Work in towns for part times. In India, I doubt
    everyone had land(free to use), home(no rent charge, no tax).

    ==I subscribe to The Economist,

    ((( Oh, thanks god, you are back to yourself. )))
    Give me the title, google tells you where to grep a free copy.
    It is a nice read eventhough it has bias on India. The comparison
    is so obvious even blindman can feel it. Yes, for the last 5 decades,
    China consistently beat India in growth, through extremely bad time
    and also some good time. The author is convinced that the gap is
    getting larger. He found China accelerates. His saw what his not willing to see.

    ————————-
    The Great Divide
    Mar 3rd 2005
    From The Economist print edition

    100% free: link

    11 Mar 2005, 23:57

  472. idiom

    take a look at the chinese and indian in singapore and malaysia, the answer is there

    12 Mar 2005, 02:24

  473. A Proud Texan Chinese

    I really want to talk about the Indian "Software" business.

    I am working as a senior software engineer in a top US telecom company, surrounded by countless software "workers" from Indians, who came to the USA by many different means. I call them "workers" for couple of reasons:

    1> Those entitled "senior architect" could not describe what is "transaction".
    2> Those constantly bushitting "normalize database", and called themself "senior data architect", could not answer a simple question: what means by "normal form".
    3> Those claimed "senior software eng. (shame, worker!)" could not distinguish "hard disk capacity" and memory size!

    …..

    Believe it or not. They are simple some facts, which apply to more than 80% of those "workers", no, I should say "labors" ….

    Software dont need to be soft, even hardware is really hard. I cannot imagine a nation having a nonsense Olympic record, would be able to face the international competition positively. Cheating and doing thing stealthy wont win, period.

    Cheers,

    12 Mar 2005, 03:24

  474. Texan Chinese

    I just have one question. If what you are describing is not the exception (if true at all) and the rule, then how come Indians are the richest ethnic group in the US?

    12 Mar 2005, 10:14

  475. I have read a quarter of the comments posted on this blog and am personally disgusted by Hu Zhen Yu and his/her comments/opinions/racist statements and general ignorance towards facts and figures regarding the World and in particular India.

    Since when did the Olympic games have anything to play a part in whether a nation is allowed to sit on the Security Council permanently?
    Religion is the cause of many wars in all human history – why spark it off again here?
    I would refer you to an article in The Boar early in Term 2 by Janan Ganesh which generated actions that included death threats because many of the Chinese could not accept some of the remarks.

    As an African of Indian origin I have seen the best of both continents but have not been inspired by Chinese actions and here I am again remembering how India and the entire African continent influence my daily life.

    We should be looking towards Global Unity rather than stating one or the other rules. Patriotism is good but acceptance and tolerance is better.

    12 Mar 2005, 14:34

  476. I have to request some users to stop posting copyright material from various sources on my blog. We know how bad China is in preserving intellectual property, but please refrain and relieve me from deleting every single such post.

    One last point- I find it strange that the Chinese users keep posting about Aids and human rights allegations when China itself is a big carrier of Aids (added to SARS and bird flu) and is one of the worst in human rights abuses. At least in India there is a proper channel of redress.

    12 Mar 2005, 15:27

  477. stone Liu

    Aruni, you said that Indian is the richest ethnic group of US. can you provide some reliable source to support that claim? (but leave those sources of boasting Hindu words alone ).

    I was told either Jews or east Asians is the richest ethnic group.

    12 Mar 2005, 20:50

  478. Stone Liu

    This is old news. It was confirmed in the 2000 US government census. Indians have overtaken Japanese and Koreans as the richest ethnic group in the US. You are living in the past. Here are some sources to back up this claim (I can provide more on request)-

    From USINPAC

    "The nation's wealthiest ethnic group, with a median family income over $60,000, its population doubled between 1990 and 2000, to 1.7 million, and is likely to double again by 2010"

    From Stephen Knapp

    "Who are the Chief Executives of CitiBank, Mckensey & Stanchart? Victor Menezes, Rajat Gupta, and Rana Talwar. Indians are the wealthiest among all ethnic groups in America, even faring better than the Caucasians and natives. There are 3.22 million Indians in USA (1.5% of population). YET, 38% of doctors in the USA are Indians. 12% of the scientists in the USA are Indians. 36% of NASA scientists are Indians. 34% of Microsoft employees are Indians. 28% of IBM employees are Indians. 17% of INTEL scientists are Indians. 13% of XEROX employees are Indians. "

    From Asia Times

    "Mediating the two dynamics has been the 1.5 million-strong Indian community in the United States – the single richest ethnic group, mostly composed of highly trained professionals. Indian Americans' profile has sharply risen in recent years with business success stories and their disproportionate role in information technology

    13 Mar 2005, 13:29

  479. stone Liu

    Aruni,

    I'm asking you to provide a reliable source to support your claim that Indian is the richest ethnic group in US. but you can only pick out articles or speeches came out from Indian authors.
    The link of UNINPAC you provided is the "US Indian political Action Committee", and the other two sources you provided are both based on Indian individuals Stephen Knapp and Praful Bidwai.

    I don't buy that Indian-favoured conclusion based on Indian sources, since the Hindus habit of talking big is well-known. Why not show me the "2000 US government census " you mentioned?

    If you cannot provide a reliable, authorised source (say, report on US demography given by US govenment) to support that claim. That shows only one fact: This wide-spread myth you claimed is just another NASA boy story. Indian are so eager to believe something favour them so as to show they are not inferior. both the NASA boy hoax and the claim "Indian is the wealthiest ethnic group in US" if of this kind of Indian believes. Sad.

    13 Mar 2005, 14:45

  480. New Yorker

    I am sorry that you have gone down to Hu Zhen Yu’s levels. I refuse to allow your messages unless they carry substance like Stone Liu’s.

    Stone Liu

    I am sorry to disappoint you, but all the articles I mentioned used data from the US Government Census 2000. I gave you the opportunity to do some research yourself and find out the facts, but I guess I have to spoon feed as usual. Well, here goes-

    “Federal Government of the United States, Census 2000 Table SF 4”: link

    Median annual income of Indian family in the US- $70,708
    Median annual income of Chinese family in the US- $59,497
    Median annual income of White family in the US- $53,356

    Per capita income of all 15 plus Indians in the US- $27,514
    Per capita income of all 15 plus Chinese in the US- $23,642
    Per capita income of all 15 plus Whites in the US- $23,918

    Any other doubts?

    13 Mar 2005, 15:28

  481. stone Liu

    Aruni,

    Your post #480 shows a mess of logic reasoning . disappointing…

    Ths link you provided did exclaim that Indian in US on average were richer than Chinese in US and Whites. but that did NOT justify that Indian is the wealthiest ethnic group in US, on which you claimed.

    Jump to the conclusion of yours on the basis of materials of this website is logically absurd.
    reason 1: the Census sample there is not a comprehensive comparison on wealth degree of ethnic groups . It didn't tabulate data of American Japanese or Korean or Taiwan Chinese in US.
    reason 2: the Census sample take American Whites as a whole ethnic group, rather than pick Jews out. without explicitly showing Indian in US is richer than Jews, Japanese, Korean, Taiwan Chinese, you cannot jump to your conclusion of that.

    If take whites as a whole ethnic group is reasonable, why not take Chinese mainlander, Taiwanese, Japanese, Korean as a whole ethnic group? why not take Indian, Pakistani, Bangeladish in US as a whole ethnic group to compare?

    That's why I said your logical reasoning is a mess there. your claim on such a basis remain unproved. I'm disappointed.

    13 Mar 2005, 16:29

  482. Stone Liu

    Your claims are getting pathetic by the hour. I guess I will have to unclothe the complete fallacy of your argument. Here goes-

    Firstly, I would think that the Taiwanese would object to being classified alongside the mainland Chinese and thus I kept them separate. But I will include them here on your request.

    Secondly, “Jews” as you call them refers to people whose faith is Judaism. Had you enough sense to see that the ethnic backgrounds have been done on nationality and not religion, you would understand the difference. With the same logic, Hindus should be included in the case of India, and the average would be much higher. Indian Sikhs, for example, bring the average down because of jobs such as taxi drivers in NYC.

    Finally, here is some more bad news for you-

    Median annual household income of Chinese (including Taiwanese)- $60,058
    Median annual household income of Korean- $47,624
    Median annual household income of Whites- $53,356
    Median annual household income of Asians overall- $59,324

    Median annual household income of Indians- $70, 708

    Average annual earning of a full-time employed Japanese man in the US- $52,192
    Average annual earning of a full-time employed Indian man in the US- $52, 951

    Source- “US Census 2000”: link

    So, other questions?

    13 Mar 2005, 16:56

  483. Chaoyin

    Chaoyin

    India Ethic group is the richest in USA? come on, you kidding me? are you talking about the hundreds of thousands of yellow cab drivers who make livings on the street of New York city? A friend of mine told me that he used to work as a waiter in a Chinese Restaurant in Manhattan, and he said it is a open secret that the Indian are the most stingy ethnic group in USA! There was one time that he served a dinner for an Indian family(4 people) with total of only $48 bucks for two hours, and he was only tipped for 25 cents! What a rich people from Indian! He said he never saw any Indian who ate in his restaurant gave good tips, sometimes even no tip at all!!! and the same things happened with Indian eating but giving bad tips in many restaurants in NYC as he know.

    Indian are very good at talking big, so I am very suspous about this one, maybe it is just another Nasa boy story which happened in USA this time, but so far nobody disclose the truth yet. Otherwise, if they are the richest on average in US, why they are so stingy giving tips?

    14 Mar 2005, 02:14

  484. Chaoyin

    In addition, rich Indian in USA doesn't mean rich Indian in India, there are only two or three mil Indian in USA, but there are 1 billion Indian living in India, which is still a very poor country no matter what.

    14 Mar 2005, 03:03

  485. Indian

    Chaoyin,

    We all know well that the media is muffled in China. You might call us Indians dirty with AIDS. That does not do enough to cover up the fact that the most healthiest chinese succumed to SARS and that they have AIDS as well.

    China is filled with fake goods, patent violations and above all a good source of illegal migrants into the US. Even the US census lists China along with Mexico.

    A few million chinese and little development in Shanghai and Guang Dong does not make Yunan province or Inner Mongol Autonomus region very rich. Besides, it is not Chinese companies that make China today. The Financial Times reports that it is Japanese, Korean, German and American companies that use China as a base.

    When your media itself is not open, there is no question of sourcing reliable statistics.

    14 Mar 2005, 10:58

  486. KXB

    Why should a simple comparison of Mumbai and Shanghai lead to such vicious talk? I don’t think it’s a big surprise that Shanghai is far better developed (materially) than Mumbai.

    The problem for India was not its democracy, but its socialism. Once a politician got elected to office, he could dole out the resources of the state (and often seize private property) without much problem. The more goodies he could hand out, the more times he would get re-elected. Of course, this political largesse ran out in 1991, when the nation discovered that it is not enough to redistribute wealth – you have to generate it as well.

    Also bear in mind, China undertook its reforms in 1978, India in 1991. China had no choice but to embrace capitalism whole-heartedly – after all, once you’ve killed off 40 million people in a manmade famine, killed off several million more in a pointless Cultural Revolution, maybe you should try a less radical system.

    If India was more hesitant about economic reform, it’s because India did not suffer the inept leadership of Mao. Democracy in India may be aggravatingly slow, and often falls short of its ideals, but it does not sacrifice the lives of several million people to achieve the millennial ambitions of a madman.

    As for China’s military might, this is a case of its bark being worse than its bite. Chinese and Indian conventional militaries are at parity, with China having an edge in nuclear weapons. But so what? Chinese leadership would not be so foolish as to launch a nuclear attack on India, since they would get nuked in kind. Neither country has the ability to send soldiers deep within the other because of the Himalayas, which make protecting supply lines nearly impossible. China’s military is weaker than Japan or Russia, and was beaten by the Vietnamese in the late 1970’s. Of course, Chinese schoolbooks do not report the Vietnam episode, just as they do not report the Great Leap Famine or Tianamen Square.

    On a funny note, on The Simpsons last night (March 13, 2005), the Simpsons went on a trip to China, and as they were walking through Tianamen Square, there was a sign that read, “On this site in June 1989 – nothing happened.”

    For all of China’s supposed influence and wealth on the world stage, where was it when the tsunami struck? All that FDI did not amount to much when its neighbors were in trouble. Despite suffering terrible loss of life at home Indian naval vessels were sent to Sri Lanka the next day and to Indonesia in less than a week, bringing medical supplies and doctors. Singapore provided more help than China. The Indian navy currently provides security for most of the world’s shipping from the Middle East to the Pacific Ocean. The South China Sea, ostensibly China’s sphere of influence, is infested with pirates.

    If China were so secure in its military advantage, why the constant need to send military hardware to the Pakistanis, who have shown no real skill in using any of it? Oh, and thanks for sending Pakistan nuclear technology during the 1980’s, since they turned around and sold it to anyone with a briefcase full of cash. The world is so much safer now thanks to you guys.

    14 Mar 2005, 16:27

  487. Very good points raised. I am sure all you will get in return is irrelevant abuse.

    14 Mar 2005, 16:40

  488. KXB

    More fun facts about China's record on nuclear proliferation:

    "China's Non-Proliferation Words vs. China's Nuclear Proliferation Deeds"
    Nuclear Control Institute, 1997
    link

    14 Mar 2005, 17:10

  489. stone Liu

    Aruni,

    Just a question, why do you delete my post about your misinterpretation of the data from US censor 2000?
    Indian is not the wealthiest ethnic group of US. A man should face the truth. Do not dip your head in sand.

    14 Mar 2005, 18:28

  490. Hu ZhenYu

    Let's make a conclusion.

    India has advantage in political system, it is a democracy.
    China has a better culture, hard working, practical. Not like India, talking too much.
    Chinese is a superior race, sports, intelligence.

    So all the factors together China is ahead of India.

    14 Mar 2005, 19:45

  491. Indian

    Hu Zhen Yu,

    India has as much a good culture that emphasises on education, hard work and practicallity. Let me give you the example of Dhirubhai Ambani, he had nothing but a 10th grade education yet he started and became the first private company in Fortune 500 (no private company from China). His networth was $8 Billion when he was alive. Sort of like Li Ka Shing. What is more there are more billionaires in India and India has a much deeper and better stock market than China. China cannot develop it's own stock market since only democracies can sustain a democractic financial system.

    Chinese are not a superior race to any one. If you were so superior why would the Japanese, British, American, Russia and even Mongols screw you left and right?

    14 Mar 2005, 23:01

  492. Hu ZhenYu

    We think India culture is similar to Africa tribe culture. Many gods, very messy. It is a very primary culture for people just come out of forrest.

    We China do not want to be associated with Indians, therefore we do not like to compare ourself with India. You India should try to compare with people that you are really similar, for example Pakistan, Bangadesh ….

    15 Mar 2005, 00:17

  493. Chaoyin

    KXB

    In your message#486, you said "For all of China’s supposed influence and wealth on the world stage, where was it when the tsunami struck? blah blah…", it shows that you are not only eyes-blinded, but also mind-blinded. Tell me, do you really read news outside India? Do you know China had already donated more than $83 millions to the tsunami-hit countries in the wake of the tsunami disaster in Asia? You, like all other Indians here, has the same bad habits of never checking facts before opening your filthy mouth — Please read the following acticle from BBC on Jan 27, 2005 and then move that big red meat inside your mouth.

    China
    $83m in government donations, plus $1.8m donated to the Chinese Red Cross.
    link

    By the way, how much Tsunami releaf fund did India receive from the International society? Did India donate anything to other Tsunami-hit contries? if so, I would like to know how much since I didn't find India was listed in the above articles as a coutry that donates money.

    Chaoyin.

    15 Mar 2005, 03:33

  494. Indian

    Hu Zhen Yu,

    I thank you for comparing us Indians with Africans. We are proud to be associated with the tribe from which humanity springs. It appears you have by passed the censors of CCP and Beijing. Now you can know the truth that even the Chinese race stems from the Africans.

    Modern human beings originated from Africa. What is more the anthropologist, Stephen Oppenheimer opines that India was the origin of all non-African people. This means even Europeans originated from India. The Indo-Europeans had their roots in India and Sanskrit was the first formal language in the world.

    15 Mar 2005, 04:44

  495. Indian

    In any case, here is wishing peace. Premier Wen Jiabao wishes so:

    link

    15 Mar 2005, 09:02

  496. Indian

    All Chinese:

    I agree China has made tremendous progress. I laud Deng Xiaoping and other Chinese visionaries. Here is a much more objective prespective on China by some Indian professors:

    link

    However, that said, Chinese companies continue to be pretty small and play at best a second fiddle role to Taiwanese, Korean and Japanese companies that use China as a base. This is in contrast to most Indian companies like TCS, Infosys, Wipro against whom even the US erected protectionist walls. The State of Indiana in the US actually cancelled a contract citing labor resistance.

    The criticism that Chinese companies are less dynamic than some of their Indian counterparts is quite valid. This can be guaged by the fact that China has a poor intellectual property environment.

    15 Mar 2005, 10:50

  497. KXB

    Chaoyin:

    India has been ambivalent about aid. They will not accept aid from governments, but private citizens are another matter. So, if an American wishes to contribute to an Indian charity, they are free to do so. But, India has been criticized by some aid groups for not accepting more. Personally, I believe this was wise. I just finished reading “Dark Star Safari” by Paul Theroux, where he expresses his contempt at aid workers in Africa, who seem more interested in “finding themselves” than actually improving conditions. In developing nations, aid workers often enjoy the best housing, drive the nicest cars, and in a sense, run a parallel economy. No country has become prosperous through aid, so India’s resistance is understandable.

    I wouldn’t get too boastful about China’s $80 million aid package. First off, they started coughing up the money only after receiving heavy criticism for its lack of concern for its neighbors. Secondly, almost all aid packages from all countries require that the aid recipient spend the aid on goods and services from the donor country. So, if Indonesia gets Chinese aid, chances are they will have to use that money to buy Chinese rice, as opposed to using that aid to help out Indonesian farmers. Now, the man hours spent by India, Australia, Singapore, and American troops and pilots are borne by those countries – they will not be paid back for their efforts. The cost of fuel to send naval ships, the jet fuel, and gas for trucks – again, India and these other nations will not get paid back for that.

    Now, with over $200 billion in foreign reserves and rising, why is China so stingy with aid? Well, it needs that money to prop up the nations’ insolvent banking system. The cost and return on capital China is effectively zero, for the chosen few. So, when a preferred company wants to build a new state of the art factory, with smooth roads and rail links – they just contact the right Party member, who in turn will lean on the state bank to lend the money at favorable rates. Only thing is, the money will probably never be paid back. But the money has been spent. This is great for borrowers, but lousy for lenders.

    So, to make up for that lent money, China exports like crazy. There is no wage pressure, since independent unions are banned in China, and an artificially low currency is a boost too. What makes China attractive to Western companies is not selling goods – almost no Western company has made a profit in selling to the Chinese. No, what makes it irresistible is the artificially low cost of labor and other inputs. So, a pair of sneakers that cost $2 to make can be sold for $75 in the U.S.

    Considering that during the Great Leap Forward, China kept producing stats showing greater and greater harvests, it should not surprise us if this tendency to fudge the numbers has carried over into 2005. If such trickery happens in the U.S., with dozens of law enforcement agencies and a boisterous free press, it is almost certainly happening in China, where law enforcement is lax, and the press does what it is told.

    For more on China’s fun with figures:

    China’s GDP Figures in Doubt
    Los Angeles Times, March 14, 2005
    link

    15 Mar 2005, 21:40

  498. Chaoyin

    KBX:

    You said: "I wouldn’t get too boastful about China’s $80 million aid package. First off, they started coughing up the money only after receiving heavy criticism for its lack of concern for its neighbors…"

    —-You are simply bullshitting here again, can you show me the proof you found that China was coughing up the money only after receiving heavy criticism for its lack of concern for its neighbors, please provide article links, you can also provide links for the articles or news from the midia of India. If you cannot find any proof, shut up your filthy mouth here.

    You said:"Now, with over $200 billion in foreign reserves and rising, why is China so stingy with aid? Well, it needs that money to prop up the nations’ insolvent banking system"

    —Come on, do you have any idea about numbers? where do you get that $200 billion figure from for the total foreign reserves?can you provide links here? China donated more than $83 million and it is much more than many European coutries, like Denmark, spain, France, Netherlands and Russia etc, also more than south Korea. You said China is stingy based on what? Please note China is still a developing coutry not very rich.

    You wrote so much but still cannot give me a concret number of how much India had donated. Come on, give me the figure of how much India had donated to other tsunami-hit contries, let's figure who is the stingy one here.

    The following is the list of coutries who donated money up til 1/25/05, and the data was quoted from the BBC link

    Japan-($500m), USA - ($350m), Norway – ($183m), Britain – ($96m), Italy – ($95m), Sweden- ($80m),

    Denmark -$75m, Spain – $68m, Canada – $343m, China – $83m, South Korea -$50m, Netherlands – $34m,

    Russia – Around $10m, Germany – Berlin has raised its government aid to $647m over three years

    Qatar – $25m

    Australia – The Government has raised its offer of aid to $764m over five years

    Where is India here?

    Chaoyin

    16 Mar 2005, 03:33

  499. Heavy metal

    Here is my two bits,

    India is very cultural and China is very practical. Before Buddhism came to china there is no religion, as Confucianism was considered a way of life and not religion.

    The Chinese who were influenced by communist ideologies considered religion as opium of masses. The economic depression in China changed the whole concept. Mao alone was not responsible for this, but everybody in was responsible.

    Buddhism that came to China from India in 1st century AD had lot of opposition from Confucianism, after many wars Buddhism became part of the Chinese culture and it is no more being foreign. In 7th century with the growth of the Islamic rule in India, most of the Buddhist missionaries flew to China. During this time Husan Tsang came to India and took back all the Buddhist scripts to China. This saved it from the onslaught by the Islam rulers.

    The knowledge that Chinese have on India now is very limited.China is westernising faster than India. This is because India gives more prominence to culture and democracy and China does not. The Government of China allows Buddhism to grow to counter a balance with the growing Christian culture in China.

    Indo-Chinese relations have today entered a new phase with economic relations playing a major role. It is important that both these countries come together for a better cultural understanding at this juncture.

    16 Mar 2005, 16:12

  500. Indian

    Heavy Metal,

    You are correct in saying that China is more practical than India. A good friend of mine, a Chinese, said that Indians should concentrate more on getting on their business and talk less. He is true. But many a times, I come across Chinese as quite racist. Consider the story of Harinder Veriah:

    link

    To those who said Indians are racist: this is absolute bullshit. Indians are highly protective of their identities and cultures, but that does not mean they are racist. Indeed, If more than 1 billion people can survive in India and make good progress towards achieving middle class status, it is due to the tolerance of Hinduism and Indian culture.

    It is true that the media in India is noisy – this is the price to pay for freedom of expression. The silver lining in the cloud is that the NASA boy episode was busted by the responsible Indian media itself.

    17 Mar 2005, 00:00

  501. KXB

    Chaoyin:

    Sorry to touch a nerve, but my opinions on China’s under-whelming performance in the tsunami are hardly isolated ones, and childish name-calling will not diminish the chorus of criticism.

    As Asians Offer Much Aid, Chinese role is limited
    link

    “Moreover, China is ill-equipped to launch major rescue operations. It has deployed only several dozen medical personnel to the disaster zone, while the United States has sent 13,000 troops to help. “

    “The contrast is a reminder of the ways in which China is still significantly restricted in its capabilities. Its booming economy has led to greater influence, as smaller nations seek trade and investment. But China remains poor, with low average incomes and a relatively weak military.”

    “While China has achieved a great deal, analysts said, the aftermath of the tsunami has provided stark evidence of how much further it must go before it can hope to challenge the economic prowess of Japan or the regional military dominance of the United States”
    “India, among the countries slammed by the waves, quickly sent naval vessels, helicopters and other aircraft to Sri Lanka and the Maldives. Japan quickly dispatched medical teams and emergency supplies to crippled parts of South Asia.”

    China fails the Tsunami Test
    Big power ambitions, bit player when the chips are down
    link

    “Contrast China’s stance on the tsunami with that of India, itself seriously affected, and Beijing’s behavior looks even less impressive. Within hours of the disaster, India – China’s near equal in terms of population and economic growth – told the world it did not need disaster relief for the time being, suggesting such money be diverted to poorer nations. What’s more, India dispatched navy ships and cargo aircraft to its devastated cousins in Sri Lanka, immediately staking a claim for itself in the “core” group of donor nations.”

    Keep in mind, the costs that India incurred in these rescue efforts are not calculated in aid packages.

    As for my earlier statement of China hold over $200 billion – while that is true, it is also a gross understatement. According to this week’s issue of The Economist, China currently holds over $609.9 billion in foreign reserves. Holding that much in comparatively low-yielding American treasury notes does not make much sense for an investor interested in maximizing return on investment.

    But, China has to keep all those dollars sitting there, since they need to make up for all those loans over the past 15 years which will never be paid back. After all, the banks still need to lend money, but they cannot collect. Hence China’s single focus on export earnings. Since China cannot attract investment based on traditional measures such as ROI or increasing net profits, they have attractive destination for foreign companies by being the cheapest manufacturing center in the world. By lending to favored business, this makes the cost of capital dearer for aspiring Chinese business who need capital, but may not have connections. By going all out to attract foreigners, the Chinese government is putting its own entrepreneurs at a disadvantage.

    So, despite having had a 13 year head start on India on economic reforms, there is no Chinese brand with global name recognition. India has Wipro, Infosys, Ranbaxy, and Dr. Reddy’s – just to name a few. Korea has Hyundai and Samsung, Japan has Sony and Toyota.

    Don’t get me wrong – China should be complimented for the progress it has made. But, it is largely pirate capitalism. No protection of intellectual property and copyrights, whether it’s films, software, or foreign car designs. No risk assessment in lending capital, small chance of collecting on loans, and wages that are not subject to market fluctuations. And, what is so important to aspiring capitalists, no profits.

    17 Mar 2005, 00:03

  502. Chaoyin

    KXB

    You know what, the person who wrote that article (title:China fails the tsunami test) is a complete Asshole and need to have his brain examined. On the other hand, it is really very shameful that you use this asshole's article to attack China's aid efforts and even feel very good about it! You too need to have your brain examined if you still don't feel how shameful it is to do that.

    The article this bastard wrote is full of bias and untrue facts, and it is simply a cheap shot designed to make China look bad. Just imagine how humanitarian or morally righteous is it to cynically devalue a nation's aid donations to a disaster area? China sent cargo aircrafts, China gave money, China did the best she could, but still get criticized, why? is it fair?

    No matter what this asshole said, he cannot denied China's huge aids to the Tsunami-hit countries, the $83 mil is real and this is the fact, no doubt about it.

    I would suggest you to read the following article with your eyes wide open:

    The Chinese reporting of aid efforts includes US and Muslim country.

    Nations pledge cash, aid by China-daily
    link

    Chinese aid effort by China-daily and people's daily.
    link
    link

    Again, you still failed to give me a concrete amount of money about how much India had donated. As to "India told the world that it did not need the disaster relief for the time being and what’s more, India dispatched navy ships and cargo aircraft to its devastated cousins in Sri Lanka, blah blah…", I don't deny this is a right thing to do for India, however my question here is: is it true that India really don't need the international disaster relief? the answer is No!!! on the contrary, India needs at least $600 million for reconstruction due to the damage done by the tsunami! then why India said no to the disaster relief even though it needs the disaster relief desperately? there are maybe many answers to this question, but what I can guess here are two – one is to make the face of every Indian on this planet look good, the other answer is the open secret, which is to help India's bid for the permanent membership of the UN's Security Council;

    Chaoyin

    17 Mar 2005, 04:10

  503. Chaoyin

    Just to show you more facts, please also read this article:

    China rushes aid to tsunami battered countries -By Qin Jize & Eddie Luk (China Daily)
    Updated: 2004–12-28 00:43

    link

    With nationals still missing, China has joined the international aid effort in South and Southeast Asia — a rescue mission which is set to become the world's biggest after tsunamis death toll climbed above 44,000 lives. China has sent blankets, tents, bedding, food and medical equipment, Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao said yesterday.

    "The government is to provide over 21 million yuan (US$2.6 million) in aid for victims in Asian countries hit by the massive earthquake and devastating waves," said Liu.

    First-batch relief aid left for Sri Lanka yesterday afternoon and will arrive in the early hours of today. A second plane with aids is to take off today from Guangzhou, South China.
    "We have been informed that aid will arrive in Colombo at about 4 to 5 am local time today," Cao Xiaojian, an official with the Chinese Embassy in Sri Lanka, told China Daily.
    More aid will be sent out to more countries over the coming days," Liu said.

    He confirmed no other Chinese deaths except a Taiwan province national.

    Liu said the ministry was also concerned about the safety of the residents from Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan, believed to be missing.

    Task force

    Liu Jianchao said a Chinese task force of 40 rescue and aid experts were on standby to head to worst hit areas. "We have to see if those countries will put forward such requests," Liu said.

    Guo Xun, an earthquake expert, who arrived Sri Lanka yesterday to join a six-strong United Nation evaluation team told Chinese media via phone he had begun assessing the scenes of destruction and death.

    "I will go to an area near Colombo to see the damage of the infrastructure, including house, bridges and roads," he said.

    The Red Cross Society of China expects to offer emergency aid of US$150,000 to affected countries.

    17 Mar 2005, 04:16

  504. Chaoyin

    Please also read this article:

    China's Rich, Poor Make Tsunami Donations

    ALEXA OLESEN

    Associated Press

    link

    BEIJING - At the Chinese Red Cross, volunteer Zhao Zhengang's phone rang nonstop Tuesday with more than 1,500 calls from people who wanted to give money for survivors of South Asia's deadly earthquake and tsunami.

    The calls came not just from China's newly rich entrepreneurs but from pensioners, children and migrant workers, said Zhao.

    The outpouring of private aid – driven in part by Chinese state media's blanket coverage of the suffering – is unprecedented for this country, where giving to charity is still rare and aiding survivors of disasters abroad is almost unknown.

    "We all live in the same world and our economic situation is better now than it was and our standard of living has improved, so now is the time," Zhao said.

    The private giving is especially striking in contrast to Beijing's relatively limited official aid. The communist government hopes to be seen as an Asian leader, but its $60 million donation ranked it in seventh place behind No. 1 donor Japan – regarded by Beijing as a rival for regional superpower status – and even behind tiny Sweden.

    The Chinese Red Cross says it has collected at least $3 million in cash and pledges since the Dec. 26 disaster – a significant sum in a country where the average person lives on less than $1,000 a year.

    Public giving has already eclipsed Beijing's initial pledge of $2.6 million, which the government later raised.

    "Such an outpouring of support from the public is phenomenal," said John Sparrow, a spokesman for the Beijing office of the International Red Cross.

    China has sent medical teams and emergency supplies and food to hard-hit Indonesia, Thailand and Sri Lanka.

    Still, its donation seemed small relative to its ambitions as an emerging Asian superpower. Also ahead of Beijing are the United States, the World Bank, Britain and Spain.
    (to be continued…)

    17 Mar 2005, 04:22

  505. Chaoyin

    Asked last week whether Beijing should give more, Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao said China was a developing country that extended aid "within its own capacity."

    But many ordinary Chinese seem to be giving beyond their means.

    Mo Yizhen, a 6-year-old in the northeastern province of Liaoning, gave $22 in coins that he saved for three years, the official Xinhua News Agency said.

    "The schools were washed out there and I hope the money could help the children there go back to school again," Mo said.

    A taxi driver visiting the Red Cross headquarters in Beijing said he gave $24 – a full one-tenth of his $240 monthly paycheck.

    "Such disasters are not something that happens every day," said the driver, who would give only his surname, Li. "For me to give a bit of money is a good thing."

    The largest individual pledge so far came from a Chinese businessman who gave $125,000 and asked not to be identified, according to Sparrow.

    Among the smallest: a farmer from one of China's impoverished provinces called the Red Cross to ask whether $1.2 would help, Sparrow said.

    For the Chinese Red Cross, seeking donations for the needy abroad is rare, said Wang Xiaohua, a spokesman for the agency.

    Wang can only remember one other drive for a foreign disaster – the African famine in 1985, when a total of $1.6 million was collected.

    The donations pouring in from all over the country reflect China's booming prosperity in recent years, when millions of families began for the first time to earn disposable income.

    "Now more and more people can spare some money to support people 1,000 miles away," said Wang, the Red Cross spokesman.

    At a donation station in Beijing on Tuesday, Shen Gang, his wife and 3-year-old son handed over $36 in cash.

    The money was "not a big deal," said Shen, a clothing marketer. He and his wife make a total of about $1,200 a month.

    "We wanted to help other kids affected by the tsunami who need help and hope they can be as happy and healthy as our son," said Shen.

    17 Mar 2005, 04:24

  506. I think this is the ideal time to draw a reasonable conclusion to this rather lenghty and illuminating debate.

    India and China have both had marvellous histories as two of the world's oldest civilisations. They have both given the world many gifts- paper, gunpowder, printing, maths, medicine, university education, navigation, steel/cotton/silk manufacturing to name a few. They both suffered the scourge of colonialism. Now both are in the process of regaining their economic prowess.

    China started liberalising earlier, and is way ahead on most developmental statistics than India at this stage. It has some problems which do not exist in India such as a faltering banking system, a poor stock market, inequality and a stunted corporate sector. India, however, has much more fundamental problems- that of improving basic infrastructure, public services and reforming its corrupt bureaucracy.

    In political terms, China's communist party has maintained its monpoly on power. Economic growth has silenced critiques on the performance of the government. But legitimacy is still in question. India sustains a stable democracy, although one which has many glitches, corruption being the foremost. Socially speaking, both countries face certain problems- SARS, AIDS and a rapidly ageing population in China; caste, AIDS and over population in India.

    Strategically, China faces a thorn in Taiwan (and possibly Japan and US with it), while India still has the irritant of Pakistan. China looks at US and Japan as its regional rival (with a half open eye at India), while for India, China is the main counter thrust at this stage.

    As the discussion on my blog has shown, there are various issues to be resolved between these two countries. However, it is high time that we looked into the future. I cannot help but think the prospects of an Indo-China co-operation rather than confrontation. Economically and politically, it would open up new frontiers for the 2.4 billion people of these two countries. Relations and trade have both been steadily on the rise, and we can only hope they improve further.

    Thank you all for participating in this debate.

    18 Mar 2005, 13:03

  507. A guy who post here before

    I had post some bad messages against Indian people to this forum before, and I am now apologize for it. The thing made me to do this is because I made some Indian friends recently, and I found that Indian people are actually very friendly and nice and and helping. Hope the friendship between our two great countries can grow through mutual communicating and culture dialoging. May the peace be there forever.

    18 Apr 2005, 16:14

  508. Chinese

    The relation between china and india now is quite like the situation of that of Germany and Franch. Better or worse, each one has its own idea and standard.

    Why not drop the difference and seek what in common?

    We both need bread, and clothes, don't deny that we are not wealth enough to ignore such requirements.

    We two nations have quite a lot in common though the differences are also large. We have been peasefully lived for several thousand years, only recently, after the coming of the westen people.

    We need to united not seperated. So I would suggest, let talk more about the cooperation rather than the "negative comparations".

    Wish we both have a bright future.

    11 Jul 2005, 13:02

  509. QT

    em…. interesting debate. Maybe I'm too late to make some comments here.

    To my Chinese friends,

    We all know our great cultrue. and progress in the past few decades. To be the No. 1 power in this world, we need to listen our weaknesses from others, like these Indian friends. Wo men yi ding bu neng zi da. You yi ke bao rong de xin, wo men cai neng fa zhan. The real power of Tang dynasty is the willingness of absorbing different cultures.

    Personally, I would like to learn from our Indian friends, regarding Software development, IT service, Law, Bio ect…

    Cong ming de ren shi bu hui he SB Yin Du Ren zheng lun de. Bian de cong ming yi dian, xue xi ta men hao de yi fang mian.

    Yin Du Ren de zi da, wu zhi, shi hen ke xiao de. Wo men yi ding bu neng xiang ta men xue xi.

    Don't waste our time here. Let's act it now.

    To my Indian friends,

    I have a lot of indian friends in Singapore, and Silicon Valley.

    I wish I can go to India, and know more about Indian culture, one of the greatest in the world.

    I have left my contact here, and hope we can make friends as well.

    Aruni, I hope you can have a nice trip in china. Try your best to learn about China. I'm very interested to read your paper after you finish it.

    Can you post it here? (ya, i forget the IP issure, if you don't mind)

    13 Jul 2005, 08:59

  510. sayani ghosh

    hi aruni,
    firstly as a bengali i would like to congratulate you on creating such an interesting blog. JIO GURU, CHALIYE JAO. i've read all of the posts & i think that both the indians & the chinese should overcome these prejudices & make friends wlth to reach a better understanding. here's th that!!!!!!

    05 May 2006, 07:21

  511. Tomar shubhechhar jonne dhonnobaad, Sayani!

    This is not really a blog per se, but a collection of some of my published work as well as some projects that I am planning to conduct in the not–too–distant future.

    About the Indo–China issue, a friendly relationship can only be sustained in an environment bereft of back–stabbing and dodgy dealings. The onus is on China to relax its "string of pearls" policy, and develop a genuinely benign outlook. India and China have shared a historically close relationship much before the 20th century, and there is no reason that we cannot do it again.

    05 May 2006, 09:52


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